Common Sense that has no sense

Common Sense that has no sense

I am reading this quote

"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong". 
Carl Jung

This quote sent my mind on an inquiry path. Why don't we say this is logical? Or, this makes logic to me to keep the rhyme of saying makes sense? That is not all. When we say this makes sense to me- does it relate to our senses and how?

We are sensory beings. Are senses enough to guide us to the truth? Aren't logical thinking, systemized steps of thinking, form a better way to arrive at facts?

We don't say it is logical. Is saying it makes sense to me? Does this common sense relate to our five traditional senses of smell, taste, hearing, sight and touch?

Logical thinking may help us reach accurate solutions as much as possible. This is true. However; logical thinking has betrayed us from finding more possibilities, more discoveries and tied up our minds with the chains of inherited beliefs. For one thousand year Aristotle led us to believe that the earth is composed of four materials: water, air, earth and fire. Where is the logic in accepting misleading theories or concepts for such long times? Had we used our senses would have realized the wrongness of this theory.

Do I dare say that senses and logic should be aligned or pointing to the same direction before we may say something is right or wrong? In other words I would change the quote of Carl Jung to the pendulum swinging between logic and senses more than sense and nonsense.

We accepted that our senses are five for centuries. Now, we add knowledge as a sense, to give one example. The pendulum swings between senses and logic- but we need to define more what we mean by senses. Does this make common sense?

We are using common sense to accept long-term quotes that make no sense!

What is your opinion?


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Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#127
Great examples that make sense . Your examples are formidable and to me they form an integral part of the buzz. You got me thinking and deeply.

Julio Angel 🐝Lopez Lopez

Julio Angel 🐝Lopez Lopez

4 years ago #95

#125
I will be very attentive, their buzz always interesting and welcome. Ali Anani

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#124
The discussions here and a sudden observation are the theme of my next buzz Julio Angel \ud83d\udc1dLopez Lopez. My search for facts has guided me to soe very strange observations and they shall also respond to your comment here.

Julio Angel 🐝Lopez Lopez

Julio Angel 🐝Lopez Lopez

4 years ago #93

#121
#122 Ali Anani The historical context of Aristotle and other thinkers is not ours. As a species we continue to evolve. Senses or skills? A higher sense whose organ is the brain? Thank you for awakening the skills.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#121
You aren't off the mark dear . I read reports on the missing senses that we have, but are unable to locate. This is similar to the Periodic Table in which few elements with certain properties were anticipated well before their discovery.Yes, Euclidean thinking is outdated and now we have the fourth dimension of spacetime. I shall not be surprised if we have new senses to fill in some gaps.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#119
We are here to learn from each other dear Tausif Mundrawala. Let us remain always bold and differ sensibly. I encourage you to keep doing this for the sake of knowing more. We all passed through your experience, but this is a way to advancement.

David B. Grinberg

David B. Grinberg

4 years ago #90

Wow, belated kudos on yet another thought-provoking buzz, Ali -- in addition to all the exemplary comments below. A few thoughts, if I may: 1) Your example of Aristotle reminded me of Copernicus, who convinced people of his time that Earth was the center of the Universe and all things cosmic resolved around us. Other then being completely wrong from an astronomical perspective, this also smacked of narcissism. Of course, it's all always about the conventional "we" or "us" -- why is that? What sense makes humankind so arrogant? 2) I'm curious as to whether there may be extra senses for which the collective "we" and science are not yet fully aware? For example, is "Extra Sensory Perception" (ESP) a monolithic sense? Could there be other innate senses that are so commonplace that they are hidden in plain view, so to speak? I'm reminded of theoretical physicists who postulate about extra dimensions in space and time (per "String Theory" or "Parallel Universes") . While we apparently live in a 3-dimensional world, that's not true for every living creature or plant on the planet. Thus, could there be hidden senses similar to hidden dimensions, for which we will only become aware once humans reach a higher state of consciousness and/or intelligence? Does this make any sense? Thank you for indulging me on this...

David B. Grinberg

David B. Grinberg

4 years ago #89

Wow, belated kudos on this thought-provoking buzz Ali Anani and all the exemplary comments below. A few thoughts, if I may: 1) You example of Aristotle reminds of Copernicus, who convinced people of his time that the Earth is the center of the Universe and all things resolve around us. Other than being way off base from an astronomical perspective, this also smacks of narcissism. Of course, it's all about the conventional "we" or "us"! Sound familiar? 2) I'm curious as to whether there may be extra senses for which science is not yet fully aware? For example, is "Extra Sensory Perception" (ESP) a monolithic sense? Could there be other innate senses that are so commonplace that they are hidden in plain view, so to speak? I'm reminded of scientific theories about extra dimensions is space and time. We live in a 3-dimensional world, but that's not true for every living creature or plant on the planet. Thus, are there hidden senses similar to hidden dimensions for which we will only become aware once humans reach a higher state of consciousness? Does this make any sense? Thank you for indulging me.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#115
Nice thoughts Yogesh Sukal. My problem is sometimes logic doesn't doesn't make sense.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

This buzz inspired dear Sara Jacobovici to write a buzz on "Dear Javier - an open letter". https://www.bebee.com/producer/@sara-jacobovici/dear-javier-an-open-letter#c15 Her letter addressed to Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee is worthy of your attention.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#112
Thank yo dear Tausif Mundrawala for your logic and magic". Nice thoughts here, but I wonder if you would see any connection between magic and senses!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#110
I appreciate greatly your comment dear \ud83d\udc1d Fatima Williams. You wrote " If I use reasoning filled with learning to define how to work my senses I benefit more than when I use logic to define how senses work". I called for the two to work together. I have to study your idea as I respect differences with you to the maximum degree. May be you find the expansion of this buzz in the buzz I have already published you may find in part more on how I think.

🐝 Fatima G. Williams

🐝 Fatima G. Williams

4 years ago #84

After reading each and every comment. I proudly say this buzz is an ocean and the comments are waves each time they come to me ,they remind me how powerful an ocean with flowing waves/ thoughts as rich as the below comments is. Strong enough to form a tsunami. Strong inform to help me surf like an expert in the topic of discussion. I hold on to my extra-ordinary senses and clap for the engagement on this buzz is enriching.

🐝 Fatima G. Williams

🐝 Fatima G. Williams

4 years ago #83

#56
Ali Anani Senses are like the mixture in the air that forms the clouds. The right mix provides a pleasant rain and a rainbow And the wrong mixture causes a thunderstorm or even worse. If I use reasoning filled with learning to define how to work my senses I benefit more than when I use logic to define how senses work. Senses are a part of me and I wouldn't want nonsense messing around with it. CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit I love and second Mr Manjit's comment here. "The journey of focusing on extraordinary sense distances me from common sense - and the judgements that result from application of common sense." This is an excellent way to discern ourselves from people with common sense. Our senses ( The way we see, think , speak ) are not common. Then why do we call it common sense. As Mr Manjit explains it's an extra-ordinary sense. It's Us. Common sense was designed by educational institutions and the society for people who live like a herd of sheep trained to move in one direction. Like an election that just happened with people using their common sense disregarding their unique senses which would have told them not to follow the flock.

David Navarro López

David Navarro López

4 years ago #82

#98
you are right...should write more about it...already ruminating....

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#106
Dearsiraj shaik- this is a powerful summing of what is going here "The logics, senses, knowledge and many aspects may differ but streaming into by binding a chain and also interlinking with combinations". I simply love it.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#105
WOW! I have just dropped a comment on your synchronicity buzz Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange and I am referring in it to the eye of the vortices in turbulent waters. wI shall explain more in the buzz.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#102
This is an extremely precious dedication dear friend @Gert Scholtz. One mind does clap alone. It is minds like yours that make clapping possible. I am not less than any one of you my great commenters in learning from these discussions. I am preparing a buzz that I promised in response to the comment of my friend CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit. I could write at least ten more buzzes by expanding what I learnt from these comments. I am proud of you and being connected with souls like yours. Gert.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#102
This is an extremely precious dedication dear friend Gert Scholtz. I could write at least ten more buzzes by expanding what I learnt from these comments. I am proud of you and being connected with sould like yours. Gert.

Gert Scholtz

Gert Scholtz

4 years ago #77

#101
Ali Anani The 100th comment is dedicated to you Ali. You open my mind to new possibilities and discoveries by learning me through your posts to give credence to the senses and to making sense. You never impose thought and yet you are a master at teaching and inspiring thought. Thank you for that Ali.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Who will contribute the 100th comment?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#89
Actually if your time would allow you to read the very enriching comments and their dynamism you shall find your questions are of extreme relevance my friend Aaron Skogen. You ask questions and we need time to study them sensibly before answering them logically.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#88
Melissa Hefferman to comment. What attracted my eye is your solid writing "I keep uncovering discoveries that further my belief in a strange instinctual balance between the wisdom of uncertainty, and faith in Self and others". I love your use of the term "the wisdom of uncertainty". I fully agree. Certainty is like a comfort zone and it teaches us a little. Imagine if we lived in a place where temperature is almost fixed year round then what challenges we would have? Or, would have we ever bettered our knowledge of forecasting? You are a wise lady.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#87
DEar David Navarro L\u00f3pez- what a great way to start your comment "The common sense is the less common of the senses". I love it as I do with the rest of your comment my friend. The rest of your comment explained AND justified your powerful line of thinking. The other point that got me thinking are your concluding lines "We are blindfolded for the path ahead of us. To learn from our errors of the past and be cautious is the only way we have to date, at least, not to make the same error twice, and eventually, find the righteous path". This is an interesting point. Common sense is in line of your thinking; sadly, there many voiced inviting us to forget about the past. We can't erase the past and it has a role in shaping up our future. I honestly believe you should expand these line into a buzz.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#86
Dear Tausif Mundrawala- great and you summed up your thoughts very nicely in one line "Well in many cases sense plays a key role to support the logic and come to the conclusion". I hope that sense plays a part ALWAYS.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#85
Absolutely and I am glad your mention of wars dear Lisa Vanderburg. It is unfortunate that most creative ideas developed during wars. Examples include aeroplanes, radar and toxic chemicals. The lack of wisdom that led to wars thre its shadows on future generations. It seems humans are not different from forests. After a burn out a forest flourishes. We do insist on burning cities, trees and then develop methods to rebuild.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#83
harish daniel- I agree with you and I would say that Pareto's Rule works here as well. 20% of people have the wisdom to make use of their knowledge.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#82
My response to the comment of Harvey Lloyd

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#81
Thank you so much for your contribution Ian Weinberg. I expressed similar views on your line "And so we work with a whole and connected brain, equipped with multiple connections for integration". Yes, I consider the right and left brains two resources that need to be integrated.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#80
Harvey Lloyd- this is quite an interesting comment. From the individual logic to the consideration of community and being wise in communicating with the community is an interesting point. In community we lose one degree of freedom and wisdom must pop up in our dealings. I concur therefore with your view "Critical thinking will always be a part of the process but not the whole".

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#76
This is an interesting idea dear Devesh Bhatt I hope he would comment on this idea.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Because of heavy commitments I shall only be able to respond to the great comments in 2-3 hours. I am greatly indebted to all commenters.

David Navarro López

David Navarro López

4 years ago #64

My always challenging Dearest Ali! Reading your lines I could not help to remind a Spanish saying: The common sense is the less common of the senses. Just to tease you mind, I would like to add: If we dissect the item "common sense" it could lead us to think that it means "what the common sensing is" or "what normally is sensed" As you are pointing out, logical thinking can betray us. If you read Mein Kampf from Adolf Hitler you can find a lot of logical thinking on it too. Anything that goes out of the boundaries of what is known or socially accepted as "normal" use to be refused or prosecuted as nonsense or lacking common sense, or without logic. However, sometimes is taken as a skip forward, as a revolution, as a breakthrough. As history has proven, there is no absolute truth, ultimate truth. To find out a kind of it, we might take all we know, put it together with all we feel, mix it well, and see what happens. Then, we need to put it under the magnifying glass of good human values and evaluate what are the effects we got from it. (Oh dear, I said good human values!) Who knows what are the good human values and which are not? For Hitler, the purity and integrity of the race were good human values, as well as for millions of Germans. So this tells us we can only know for certain things from our history, when a reasonable time has passed, but not from our future. We are blindfolded for the path ahead of us. To learn from our errors of the past and be cautious is the only way we have to date, at least, not to make the same error twice, and eventually, find the righteous path.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #63

Love this, Ali Anani (not that there's anything you produce that I don't!). It got me thinking about war; I KNOW that's not where you're going! But it is in those highly volatile situations we seem to use both tactical logic and our heightened sense s. Naturally, I'm not really referring to present-day, but mainly to the 2nd World War; the sense of 'righteous, compassion & camaraderie' that we can probably never get back past the nuclear age. I certainly thing we are at our best when we combine logic and senses, for the good or all humanity. Without both, we are incomplete.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #62

#82
Trial and error is the incubator of learning. So yes we do improve when we learn and generalize onto the next topic. But the give and take of the end game will always teach us new things.

Ian Weinberg

Ian Weinberg

4 years ago #61

#57
Thanks for the connection Sara Jacobovici I see much erudite dialogue has been expressed hereunder. My value contribution would reflect my subjective space. I invoke the concept of the left and right cerebral hemispheres where the right hemisphere is the seat of big picture sensitivity, subtlety, creativity and emotional connectivity. The left hemisphere is the place of linear logic and strategy, incorporating speech, calculation and 'logical' working memory. From a neuropsychological perspective it appears that the right hemiphere intuits and requests the left hemisphere to flesh-out the 'Word Document' aand thus bring into reality the abstract, intuitive seed. And so we work with a whole and connected brain, equipped with multiple connections for integration.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #60

#72
Critical thinking and logic have their place when we consider our own well being and inner monologue. Short of being independently wealthy and living in the wilderness, the value of our critical thinking will need to manifest itself within the community in which we live. In this phase is where our knowledge is tested against the end game where results are expected. To recognise this process of logic relieves the strain of being right and wrong. Gaining knowledge is an expansive process that only after we consolidate our thoughts and beliefs might we test it in public. This public test is where wisdom is born. The theory that is always in play is each of us is within an end game. Whether social, knowledge gathering or executing around goals. Critical thinking will always be a part of the process but not the whole.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

I have a word of appreciation for all commenters on this buzz. We are all learning, motivated and inspired from these discussions. Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange wrote great comments that kindle my heart and mind to respond to in my next buzz. I thank you all my friends for your rich exchange of minds. experiences and thoughts. Who can tell where the pendulum shall swing next time? The only thing I am sure about is swinging heavily because the pendulum is heavily loaded with my appreciation.

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

4 years ago #58

#67
each condition is evaluated in retrospect using logic wherein we distinguish the driving factor. So, in a sense as adults senses are evaluated logically whereas logic maybe evaluated logically or through senses. I am also contemplating the means of assessing logic/rationality and reasoning as deduced and induced. Another interestig thing is this. Maybe if we replace the crying child with a crying infant , the sensory response across all types of responders gets heightened . You pose a question which requires more time and thinking

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#74
My pendulum has changed its swing towards you so favorably my dear friend (and I truly mean it) CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit. While still bewildered by your previous comment and its depth. This one is not of less value. I am reading your line of thoughts "That is my greatest joy in learning. Swings create variation, variation is the challenge to finding flow and in finding flow we discover new variety". You got me dancing on my chair with the music your words coming alive. This is a grand way of thinking and I have no doubt you shall build on your two last comments something novel. I smell the fragrance.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

4 years ago #56

#73
My joy is equally multiplied, for my next port of call is the ignition of a Paradox Wisdom called "Extraordinary Sense". There is a term "brothers-in-arms" which is appropriate for the violence of the 20th Century. I see the formation in the 21st Century of a "kinship-in-mind-spirit-body" which is both brother and sister. Kinship is most evident here in your buzz and all the responses to your buzz. For sure the violence has not abated in our world and continues to burn its centuries old fires, but kinship is being nurtured and I will focus on what will make the 21st Century actually 21st Century. That is my greatest joy in learning. Swings create variation, variation is the challenge to finding flow and in finding flow we discover new variety. This for me is the absolute and greatest meaning of the word "DIVERSITY".

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#71
This is a hugely interesting comment my dear fiend CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit. You send my mind swinging in too many directions. Yes, and I am perplexed. My next buss is a buzz based on this comment. No question asked. I am privileged with the comments received so far and with this comment of yours my joy multiplied. I have a lot to say in my next buzz my friend.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

4 years ago #54

#62
There is no proof required that your publications are most alive other than the common sense to see the kind of minds that are discussing these publications right here. What I look at here is not publication but this solitary quote and that brings to question whether the pendulum metaphor serves the realities of the 21st Century, a century that Carl Jung never saw. What the pendulum metaphor serves is the realities of the 20th Century that continue to reside in our century - which are the swings between extremes. This quote bothered you sufficiently to detail an alternative view and give rise to a different view Your focus contains "THAT" and I am removing that "THAT" and arriving at a new title "Common Sense has no Sense" The pendulum metaphor still has a place just as physicists can abstract the pendulum and create an idealization called the "simple pendulum", which then can itself become a highly elaborate conception that creates very complex thoughts Physics of a Simple Pendulum http://www.binghamton.edu/physics/docs/physics-of-simple-pendulum-9-15-08.pdf What we see in Jung's quote then determines where we individually take it. Where I have taken it is a movement away from observing swings and their resulting extremes and the seeking of an alternative to "common sense". That alternative then can inform my learning journey because whereas common sense is a group dynamic, the alternative at the individual level becomes extraordinary sense. That journey of focusing on extraordinary sense distances me from common sense - and the judgements that result from application of common sense. People with common sense don't think like this :-)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#68
The pair of logic and intensity is a powerful one. Like a wave it has to have certain intensity to have an effect. I need to ponder on this comment at a greater depth dear siraj shaik. You have blown out my mind with the quality of your comments.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#67
Brilliant comment my friend siraj shaik will find this comment very useful as she is writing a buzz based on the exchange of comments on this buzz. I know well that she refers to the sense a mother has to her baby while still in her embryo. I am too shall be excited to read what she will say on this comment. She is in a better position to reflect the depth of your comment dear Siraj.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#65
I love your short, but meaningful comments

Mohammed Abdul Jawad

Mohammed Abdul Jawad

4 years ago #50

A sensible synopsis to steer one's senses! :)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#63
You know dear friend siraj shaik that reading a comment from you makes me joyful. Glad to read your comment

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#61
You relaxed me with your ending line dear CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit " but in the notions of phronesis and knowledge presented here, are the timeless ones that flow into my learning journey". I ask myself sometimes which publication I wrote is still alive? Mostly, I have two presentations that people are still interested in. You bring to my attention for the term "value". It is timeless. For me, this comment falls in this category.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

4 years ago #47

#39
Aristotle came up with notions of different kinds of knowledge of which phronesis (or practical wisdom or prudence) was one. Phronesis does not sit alone and is only practical in flow as a systematic relationship with other types of knowledge. https://aquileana.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/aristotles-three-types-of-knowledge-in-the-nichomachean-ethics-techne-episteme-and-phronesis/ The question "Can we ever attain wisdom?" depends on what wisdom we are talking about. Now take a look at this slide presentation by Rabbi Dr. Shlomo C. Pill called "Between the Ivory Tower and the Street: Theoretical and Practical Wisdom in Islamic and Jewish Jurisprudence" http://www.academia.edu/11188783/Between_the_Ivory_Tower_and_the_Street_Theoretical_and_Practical_Wisdom_in_Islamic_and_Jewish_Jurisprudence The example of Jewish and Islamic Law is not what is key here, what I draw my attention to is the difference between ivory tower (mountain) and practical wisdom (valley - a rich green fertile valley). There must be a reason why we pass the name of Aristotle from generation to generation - and there are things he said that are no longer relevant to our time, only to his time, but in the notions of phronesis and knowledge presented here, are the timeless ones that flow into my learning journey.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#58
Thank you my friend Bill Stankiewicz, \ud83d\udc1d Brand Ambassador.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#57
I needed your "breath" with us dear Sara Jacobovici. I am very pleased that you are writing a dedicated buzz on senses. Like you are, I am so involved in the discussions here because they increase my awareness of my own senses.

Bill Stankiewicz, 🐝 Brand Ambassador

Ali , great post, thx Fatima for sharing

Sara Jacobovici

Sara Jacobovici

4 years ago #43

Ladies and Gentlemen, I am on sensory overload! WOW! What a great exchange of ideas! Ali Anani to offer his perspective. After each comment and reply, I am tempted to respond, to applaud, to agree, to disagree, this is very exciting and dynamic. The only way I can structure my experience is by writing a post, incorporating it all. Please be patient with me. Thank you Dr. Ali and to all the readers, commenters and repliers. I look forward to the next wave of discussion.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Dear\ud83d\udc1d Fatima Williams- since and thankfully you have just shared this buzz I tell you we need your brain to enrich the discussions my friend.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#48
You wrote a great post Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange. However; I suggest that you make iit clear that every bee is invited. I felt the need to emphasize this.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#51
Harvey Lloyd- this is a great approach and opens venues for new thinking. Your concluding paragraph is so rich and intriguing. "Within our singular selves we can look at something and separate ourselves from the community. In most cases we will have to move from ourselves towards the community. Logic now changes its view". Yes, you are correct. I am amazed again by this synchronicity. I have a pendulum on my desk with many balls (self-made) and as I move the balls they move and produce different waves. It is only possible to see the waves clearly by changing the side of view. We need to abandon one-way thinking and delve into inward-outward as much as outward-inward.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #39

#17
logic, i think, is a process more than a sense. Like critical thinking, reasoning and other words that set atop our situations where decisions must be made. I would say though, logic when being scrutinized across many different people could appear to be a sense. But logic in its me only form is not necessarily a sense. I have enjoyed the conversation here as everyone has weighed in concerning the word. I saw your post more concerning the processes in-between "sense and non-sense". We watch major negotiations play out in media and it appears to start out with saber rattling then begin the journey of moving towards making sense. In viewing these things from the outside it appears to be an illogical process. But we have become beings of extremes. Each side starts at the far left and far right and we all hope it lands in the middle. Illogical. The one thing i recognized in reading the various comments is the singular or community view when discussing your intriguing topic. Within our singular selves we can look at something and separate ourselves from the community. In most cases we will have to move from ourselves towards the community. Logic now changes its view.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

This time I am truly shocked by our synchronicity Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange. I was just about asking you a question based on our synchronicity. My question roams about a new definition and if you would agree with it. Since I invited you to comment on this buzz you published your two buzzes on senses. I didn't know that you were publishing and you know that I didn't know. Does this mean that sensing precedes knowing? Or, is synchronicity the product of sensing? As simple as these two mirror questions might be; I am still bewildered by them.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Great idea#48

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#46
Yes, and what a wonderful idea. I will. I invite also dear Sara Jacobovici with whom also I have so many unbelievable synchronicity. Two points (people) make a line. Still better three points (people) make a trend.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#42
It is again synchronicity and amazing this time. I started reading your linked buzz (in your first comment" and decided to copy and paste this part here because it moved me dear Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange. I mean this bit from our buzz: "Every time we discount our own or another person’s feelings, we deny our humanity, which leads to confusion, stress, conflict, an overwhelming work environment and even corruption. Your comment just explained why this paragraph moved me. I invite readers to read Deb's buzz: https://www.bebee.com/producer/@deb-lange/the-gift-of-our-senses

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#41
Thank you dear Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange for your prominent response. I believe the discussions here are so hot to warrant your "intervention". Now, off to read your buzz.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Dear my friends Deb and Deb. I mean Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange being so experienced in this field- I invite you to participate in these lively discussions. I greatly miss your presence.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#31
CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit- n the other side, we get deeper in the valley of the unknown, the deeper we know, We know a little more, and so many new unknowns emerge. Can we ever attain wisdom?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#33
Interesting thoughts:)))

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#34
Thank you for writing an absorbing comment Phil Friedman. Right from the strat your comment aroused my attention "some of us do say, "This is logical" or "This is illogical". But we don't confuse logic". I agree, but wonder why don't we say also :This makes logic and sense to me"? Your reference to the taboos of confining our reasoning are spot on. Yes, we reduce our freedom of thinking by doing that. The question is then can an imprisoned my think logically or use senses properly? Your mind-provoking comment makes me ask "Do we sense the logic or reasning"? Is it possible to fuse both? SOmething to ponder on.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#35
Dear Lisa \ud83d\udc1d Gallagher- so happy by your comment and sharing of the buzz. Your examples are simple; yet powerful. They show the interplay between senses and logic. Your examples are best to explain what I meant in writing towards the end of this buzz "I would change the quote of Carl Jung to the pendulum swinging between logic and senses more than sense and nonsense". This time using logic and senses I say thank you.

Lisa Gallagher

Lisa Gallagher

4 years ago #28

Thought provoking post Ali Anani. I may sense that my husband isn't himself and it may not be logical to bring up the subject of finances at that moment. I may be out for a long walk and I don't have my watch, I may sense that it's getting late therefore, it's probably logical to head back home. There have been times I've talked to a family member and they 'sound' happy yet I sense something is actually bothering them- logic may tell me not to ask because if something is bothering them, they will tell me when they are ready. I do believe the two can tie together if we are in tune with our senses. Logic is about understanding and reasoning. Some people need hard facts to back up logic, others rely on their senses along with facts. At least, that's how I see it :))

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #27

Thank you, Ali, for a thought-stimulating post here. With all due respect, however, I have to point out that some of us do say, "This is logical" or "This is illogical". But we don't confuse logic (which is primarily the study of Reason in all its forms) with its subjects or with sense or nonsense, or contrast it as oppositional to Faith-based belief(s). Nor do we limit the exercise of Reason to only logical issues. For example, rational thought can lead us to the conclusion that some beliefs, namely, those based on Faith, are not amenable to Reason or Logical Analysis. For example, Kierkegaard concluded that about a belief in God. But I submit that his thought processes in doing so were rational, and his conclusion logical, although the deliberation was about a belief that is not amenable itself of being resolved rationally or logically. Beyond that, a given bit of reasoning can be logical, yet result in false conclusions, if based on false assumptions or premises. So too, bits of nonsense can be logically deduced from other bits of nonsense. And it is a confusion (not, of course, yours) to think that fact invalidates Rationality and Logic. IMO. Cheers!

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

4 years ago #26

#29
It is true that where there is uncertainties there are theories, but we have built a mountain of theories but the valley of phronesis has not been cut deep, humanities mountains would transform our collective being if they were based on the valley creating potential of practical wisdom.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#27
Part 2/ The last link you provided in your comment CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit to read as well. The ist paragraph reads: How reliable is the knowledge provided by our senses? There are many different theories about how our senses actually work. Initially, that may seem surprising: surely our senses just communicate what’s out there, be it an image, a sound, or a smell, to the brain? But of course, the process is far more complicated than that, and the variables that are involved means that there is room for debate over what exactly happens. Moreover, just a quick glance at the perceptive abilities of animals quickly reveals just how limited our senses are: in terms of our eyes, for example, our lenses are not capable of dealing with objects at long distance, the twin images they then project onto the retina are tiny and upside-down, and the retina itself is pretty much colour-blind. The optical abilities of human beings, then, are very poor. So how do we see with any certainty? Where there is uncertainty, there are theories…

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#27
You put a smile on my face my friend CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit.I was just about to retire, but couldn't resist the temptation to respond to your unique comment. Truly, the pendulum swings, but two brains may swing unpredictably like a double pendulum. We are Newtonians when we have one simple pendulum. Now, we have more than three pendulums and who on earth would guess their movement. Pendulums may produce lovely waves out of their chaos. With your brain, we have many pendulums and complexity increases. Out of this complexity order may emerge. Out of the discussion pendulums here I feel some order shall emerge and your comment is doing that. The problem is in our insistence to deal with multi-pendulums linearly when in fact we should have enough senses to know that their motion is far from linear. You make my mind oscillate in a very non-linear manner, Manjit.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

4 years ago #23

Imagine how much thinking we are engaging with one line of Jung and how much more it would be in a paragraph of Jung. The value of the nonsense and sense we produce when we look at one line ( a single quote) is ours to determine, which brings us to one question, "Did Jung write any nonsense in his lifetime?" The answer to that is the same one that pertains to us, he did. Struggling with Accusations by Aryeh Maidenbaum, Ph.D. http://jewishcurrents.org/carl-jung-and-the-question-of-anti-semitism/ The learning for me is not between sense and nonsense or logic and sense but the problem of the pendulum. That we can bring a most sophisticated brain to the level of a pendulum moves us to an even simpler view of the mind than viewing the working of our mind in the same we do a Newtonian Clock. The problem is the mechanical here and we are organic - and furthermore as Gerald Hecht will attest, we are only at the beginnings of understanding the brain. Even if we became extremely logical and extremely factual and our sense making became extraordinary, we still cannot overcome our minds to stop seeing optical illusions. How Reliable is the Knowledge Provided by our Senses http://www.theoryofknowledge.net/ways-of-knowing/sense-perception/how-reliable-is-the-knowledge-provided-to-us-by-our-senses/ If we needed a quote then the problem is one of simplification, and if the problem is simplification that moves us away from simplicity, then we are merely sharing with each other our knowledge, when this exercise should enhance our learning. So the quote becomes problematic because it has focused us into just one linear way as to our mind works. Thus leading to "using common sense to accept long-term quotes that make no sense!".

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#24
An interesting comment yours is Erroll -EL- Warner. If I work backwards perceptions affect our senses and these senses in turn are tied to our logical thinking. Senses are the bridge between perceptions and logical thinking. Interesting and to me this is new thinking that is worthy of discussion at length. Did I understand you right?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#23
Ver deep comment and is full with insights. Phillip Hubbell you wrote "I believe that everything we learn and everything we feel are stored separately and our conscious present dips into the databases to retrieve our memories using learned rules" Are you then in agreement with what I wrote in the buzz the pendulum swinging between logic and senses more than sense and nonsense"? If not, then you have an insight that I may haven't captured.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#20
What Carl Jung meant was the main reason for me to write this buzz Gert Scholtz. So, you read my mind. I agree with you that logic can flow from senses. In fact, my conclusion was the same. I wrote "pendulum swinging between logic and senses ". For me, the two feedback to each other. I thank you Gert for your sound explanations.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#19
You provide fresh thoughts to the discussions here. I invite Sara Jacobovici? I am still pondering on your line of thought "Sensation is direct experience and knowledge is indirect experience". Worthy of studying more before commenting because this idea is quite interesting.

Gert Scholtz

Gert Scholtz

4 years ago #18

Ali Anani You have certainly stirred my thoughts Ali. I have two remarks. I think logic can flow from the senses in that something sensed through the traditional five, serves as a base or first point of departure for a logical sequence of thought. I also think perhaps Jung did not mean one of the five senses when he coined his phrase but rather meant it as “sense-making”, ie thought that is coherent, as distinguished from “nonsense:, ie thought that that is not. In that way Jung’s quote does make sense to me. Thank you for the thinking post!

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

4 years ago #17

#17
#14 Zacharias needs to put the bee after his first name - when the bee emoji is placed after the surname the system does not create a tag. That is why now the bee emoji appears in the middle of my name here at beBee. Zacharias needs to make that change, then the tag will highlight.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#14
@Zacharias Voulgaris 🐝- first, don't know why your name highlighting even though I follow you. I appreciate our differences greatly. I learn from differences more than I learn from anything else. I responded in part to your comment in my response to Sara Jacobovici to share their minds on this issue. I shall be grateful to you to explain what you mean exactly by reasoning and if it is different from giving meaning as explained in Sara's first comment #12. I seek to know more and I am asking for verifications to know more. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do just this.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#13
I appreciate your sharing of the buzz dear Sara Jacobovici

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#12
Thank you and I say the beautiful mind of Sara Jacobovici produces such a beautiful comment. You are very wise to write " For my definition of senses is the means through which we process information that is then given meaning'. In this sense, knowledge is a sense because it is what gives knowledge a meaning. I wrote towards the end of this buzz "we add knowledge as a sense". I think it was you dear Sara who wrote this first. I agree with you. Even though in the following comment of @Zacharias Voulgaris he rejected the idea that knowledge is a sense I still believe it is. Sometimes knowledge misguides us and only our senses will guide us to our wrongness. I assure you Sara that I enjoyed the meaning of your extremely valuable comment through all my senses- in site of the fact that senses are still to be defined.

Zacharias 🐝 Voulgaris

Zacharias 🐝 Voulgaris

4 years ago #13

Knowledge is not (and probably will never be) a sense. It is the refined form of information, which is in itself in an internal form poised towards evolving into more refined forms. So, just like information (a refined form of data), it is insulated from the external world once it is in our minds (or any entity's mind for that matter). Also, I think you are giving way too much value to logic, which may be good at structuring information and knowledge, but not that good at anything else. Reasoning would be a more reasonable thing to use at the opposite pole of senses, as it includes more mental faculties and is inherently distinct from senses. Anyway, very sensible article (no pun intended). Thanks for sharing.

Sara Jacobovici

Sara Jacobovici

4 years ago #12

Ali Anani asks, "When we say this makes sense to me- does it relate to our senses and how?" Read about his intriguing answer.

Sara Jacobovici

Sara Jacobovici

4 years ago #11

What a great post Ali Anani. You know it is a topic after my own heart. You are right when you say we are sensory beings. And you are right when you say that we go beyond the classic 5 senses we grew up learning. You include knowledge as a sense. We have a sense of humour, a sense of direction, a sense of justice, and so on. Because, you "see", everything comes through our sensory system. Logic is a form of higher cognitive function. But we wouldn't have any cognitive functioning if it were not for our sensory system. You are right when you say we need to define senses in a better, more common sense way. You write, "Had we used our senses would have realized the wrongness of this theory." In an article, WHY FACTS DON’T CHANGE OUR MINDS, the authors write, “Once formed,” the researchers observed dryly, “impressions are remarkably perseverant.” From my perspective, impressions remain persistent in the face of facts because of the emotional factor attached to what it means to us to have those impressions in the first place. We experience everything through our senses and then that is processed either emotionally or logically. So, if I may, I would describe the pendulum as swinging from emotion to logic. For my definition of senses is the means through which we process information that is then given meaning. It wouldn't make sense though to live with that meaning in isolation. Thank you, Dr. Ali, for allowing us to experience your perspective of this "stuff that we are made of".

Sara Jacobovici

Sara Jacobovici

4 years ago #10

What a great post Ali Anani. You know it is a topic after my own heart. You are right when you say we are sensory beings. And you are right when you say that we go beyond the classic 5 senses we grew up learning. You include knowledge as a sense. We have a sense of humour, a sense of direction, a sense of justice, and so own. Because, you "see", everything comes through our sensory system. Logic is a form of higher cognitive function. But we wouldn't have any cognitive functioning if it were not for our sensory system. You are right when you say we need to define senses in a better, more common sense way. You write, "Had we used our senses would have realized the wrongness of this theory." In an article, WHY FACTS DON’T CHANGE OUR MINDS, the authors write, “Once formed,” the researchers observed dryly, “impressions are remarkably perseverant.” From my perspective, impressions remain persistent in the face of facts because of the emotional factor attached to what it means to us to have those impressions in the first place. We experience everything through our senses and then that is processed either emotionally or logically. So, if I may, I would describe the pendulum as swinging from emotion to logic. For my definition of senses is the means through which we process information that is then given meaning. It wouldn't make sense though to live with that meaning in isolation. Thank you, Dr. Ali, for allowing us to experience your perspective of this "stuff that we are made of".

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#9
You are an architect dear Harvey Lloyd in giving examples and stories that make your point of view crystal clear. I loved the idea of seeing the two faces of logic: the outside one and the inside one. This is an idea I am pondering on. You verifies this thought by your writing "Logic is something we should practice, and is typically the first step in a beginning. But eventually we must face the values, budgets and the stakeholders within the logic" and I agree fully with you. You are a thinker in stories my friend.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #8

I went to a restaurant one evening with the family and experienced something that did not seem logical. A young couple sat at the table next to us, which was crazy to begin with as all 6 of my grandchildren were in attendance. The children, a boy and a girl, were preoccupied with their gadgets and the mother asked the son what he would like to eat, tables were close. The boy said something disrespectful to his mother and arguments ensued with what appeared to be a 10 or 11 year old boy. Mom pursued the argument to the point of embarrassment and then asked dad to step in, which he did and finished up with telling the son, "I guess you win" (I had a pithy comment that thought i said low enough, but my whole family looked at me like did you really just say that?) Is this logical? From my chair it was not. But i also recognized that not only the relationship between mother and child was in play, but marriage was at play too. Carl Jung nailed it with personalities and their natural tendencies to reject or attract. Logic is something we should practice, and is typically the first step in a beginning. But eventually we must face the values, budgets and the stakeholders within the logic. From the outside this always looks illogical. From inside it is the reality that logic must go through towards success. If everyone was just like me then logic would rule! It would also be a very boring place. Logic must always stand the rigors of diversity. Great post and thoughts. I am INTJ.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#5
Do you write poetry dear Laurent Boscherini? WIth such emotions you are apt to.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#6
Dear debasish majumder- your latest comments on my buzzes are strikingly beautiful. This one is gorgeous. Yes, the pendulum doesn't move in a point attractor and it has to be dynamic. The land of knowledge is sandy and we may sink in it if we accept facts of today are invariable. Facts evolve as more scientific discoveries are made. We need, as you said, to break the shackles of traditional logic.

Laurent Boscherini

Laurent Boscherini

4 years ago #5

#4
more like tread in tranquility and serenity the other dimension that lies open before you in the many splendored achievements of an ancient and uninterrupted civilization, down to earth ;)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#3
What a paradox dear Laurent Boscherini!. Dry humor (dry ice) in an wetty and witty way expressed. Your poetic comment is music to the ear.

Laurent Boscherini

Laurent Boscherini

4 years ago #3

Thank you dear Ali Anani for sharing your very thoughtful and well written motion, as always...If we can consider gravity which ties all bodies to planet Earth, Doesn't it define the limits of the soaring human mind ? Fortunately , we can cultivate a "dry" sense of humor !

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Love your sense dear Devesh Bhatt. I like your term "Utility of Logic/Senses). This is a drop of honey. Going the sensory way without suppressing logic/ what a lovely way to pair the two. Thank you Devesh for your kind words as well.

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

4 years ago #1

Progress of Humans = The Logical/Sensible Path to arrive at Utility of Logic/Senses. 4 combinations to yield countless decisions and responses. And drop by drop each buzz of yours triggers the same persistence in this direction. I would have been very lazy on this topic if it weren't for you I think i have been made aware of the word persistence by a buzz you are well aware of . I am contemplating , how can a person yield the best from incomplete advice :) Going the sensory way without supressig logic :)

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