Migration of Ideas

Migration of Ideas

One way of solving a problem is knowing its causes. This need is challenging as it is getting harder to know the underlying cause of a problem. Moving from simple to complicated, complex and chaotic lives bring problems to identify the initial cause of the problem.

Let us consider the famous example below.

For Want of a Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.

For want of a shoe the horse was lost.

For want of a horse the soldier was lost

For the want of a soldier the message was lost.

For the want of a message the battle was lost.

For the want of a battle the country was lost.

Who would imagine that the loss of a nail would lead to the loss of a country?

Now, let me extend the discussion to what happens after the loss of a country. Many people will flee for their lives to other countries and a new problem emerges. It is the immigrants’ problem and the many new sub-problems it creates.

This issue may get come complex and chaotic if we consider what happened after losing the country in the above example. People living there will lead a chaotic life. Some of them seeking survival will flee home seeking survival and migrate to another country.

It occurred to me that ideas don’t behave differently. They feel their loss at home and try to migrate seeking survival. After-allΒ they are living ideas that have their survival issue.
Ali Anani, PhD

The causes and effects on mass migration of people has been well-researched. This is a complex issue. Not only the loss of a country leads to chaos, but also the effects complex and chaotic too.

To explain this complexity let me show by example. I simplified it to keep the issue easy to understand. The initial effect of people migrating to a new land, among others, are loss of productivity and adaptation time may take a long while. These two factors reinforce each other. The image below explains what I mean.

We see that both factors eventually lead to the initial low social acceptance of immigrants. People take time to adapt to change and they don’t accept the new culture they moved into. The original population seeing the segregation of immigrants lead to resist them and accept them. The immigrants find it increasingly difficult to merge in the new society. Likewise; the productivity of immigrants falls drastically at the beginning because people take a minimum of six months to adapt to the new culture. Lowered productivity leads to more feelings of inferiority and social acceptance goes down. This build feeling of anxiety, and the need for hospitalization. Increased costs of hospitalization increase the medical costs for the original population and this fuel reducing accepting the immigrants. This initially builds up to the rapid escalation of social rejection and the immigrants lose more of their productivity and motivation to work. The vicious circle builds up.

Does the immigration of ideas suffer from the same fate as those experienced by immigrants? It seems to me they are based on the comparison table below.


This is a great challenge for dealing with complex effects and interacting causes makes identifying the root of a problem much harder. Likewise; is identifying the root cause of ideas and how they cross our minds. Do ideas realization introduce a new cause for people to migrate? My answer is yes.


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Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#1
#34 #35 Pascal Derrien. I invite you to share your thoughts.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#36
Great comment dear Harvey Lloyd. You got me shivering with your surprising synchronicity. I am currently drafting a buzz titled "The Fall of Organizations and People- Common Threads". Do we look for the nail of falling, or the wholeness of the issue? Why Fortune's listed companies fall after reaching certain age and why people probability of falling increases? What are the common threads? I am trying to provide new perspectives in the forthcoming buzz and your comment here shall be of great help in completing the buzz.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #32

A little side note here and thank you for the nail quote, it came in quite handy in a class i am leading. The quote really made me think about how we read such things in their "wholeness". However when we face the lost nail, we experience only the first line of the quote. No concept of the future poem to be written. The nail that is lost today can carry the wisdom of the qoute as we step through each line. OR we can become so focused on the lost nail we cant see the developing environment of war. Interesting how humanity enjoys the a "wholeness" of past experience while not recognizing their own lost nail beginnings.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #31

#34
Although i agree in part about some of the points you make, i could not help but see the irony in your comparisons. "white European man", "Indigenous People", "everyone"(has ideas), all have the group identity idea as portrayed in media the world and by both sides. Your point is not lost on me and agree wholeheartedly. The irony is the difficulty in expressing any idea that does not include group identity when making points about humanity. The interpretation of group identity is where i fall off the charts. Europeans left for the new world with hopes and dreams and it was inevitable as procreation and healthcare would increase populations. Could we have experienced this with a little humility, for sure. It seems within each generation there are those who would expand humanity and those who would exploit it. (Now i am doing the same thing.) This is the challenge of those who focus on humanity. Meeting the challenges of those who wish to exploit. One persons exploitation is another's benevolence. So this task is not easy. The one true test of exploitation is outcome. Trial and error in humanity is tragic yet happens. Unfortunately we don't learn from trial and error in the humanities. Neither sword nor benevolence is always the answer. An unforeseen danger was not detected in WWI and led to WWII, this danger was detected by the US and did not repeat itself in Japan. Humanity prevailed.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #30

#1
Pascal, the greatest danger is perpetuating and reinforcing mythologies or base a negative inference on the most highlighted and visible stories and then erroneously extrapolate that to all new immigrants. There is a totalitarian approach to getting votes on the basis of the lowest common denominator - to create a "common enemy". This fiction ensures faster attention and create a fake problem that needs attention. The connection between ideas and people is in this reality and not the extrapolated conjecture we see playing out in populist politics. I cannot reconcile some US reporting https://www.healthexec.com/topics/healthcare-economics/immigrants-pay-more-private-insurance-premiums and including Canadian reporting https://thecic.org/en/popular-misconceptions-about-canadian-immigration-and-refugees/ with what we believe to be true and then paint a whole group of people who have been cast with what? An idea. Not a fact but an idea and we are not interested in boring facts, we are interested in perpetuating ideologies and such ideas are ultimately a cause and source for the inhumanity we witness. What did the white European man do to the indigenous people of the United States? How did that migration work - and so what we are really addressing here is the birthing of dangerous ideas. There is nothing much great about ideas - if ideas liberate our humanity, it is the liberation which is key, not the idea, everyone has ideas, not everyone has the practice, that makes humanity realizable.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#32
I wish I could join you for coffee, Bill. Thank you for your appreciation.

Bill Stankiewicz, 🐝 Brand Ambassador

Wonderful points here Ali, lead to a lively discussion at my coffee shop with students here in Georgia!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#30
True, and for a great culture to emerge the basic rules by which individuals interact must be right. Culture isn't planned for as it emerges. Like you said, "Social constructs emerge from necessity. They were necessary for the group they were designed. We call this culture". Unless we work on the individual there is little hope for improvement. What politicians do, in my opinion, is poison the constructs of the individual- and this is even more distorted by the media.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #26

#27
27 If we look at Japanese culture we see an honor based social construct. There is honor in family linage, transactions and social interactions. Compare this to the USA where a level of honor exists but stops at the individaul within the group. The individaul will not sacrifice themselves if they feel they are β€œright”. What happens in a mass migration where these two social constructs evolve within social, proffesional and family structures? Americans saw the Japanese as stodgy and backwards, the Japanese saw Americans as flippant and no real understanding of humanity. Both of these constructs evolved within a vaccuum of existance. Enter the world of airplanes, telephones and internet. Each paradigm is exposed to the other. Add a dash of economic globalism and the countries now must adapt to each other. I am over simplyfing to make a point. Social constructs emerge from necessity. They were nesessary for the group they were designed. We call this culture. They worked. Now we see a new construct attempting to form under a global construct that is attempting to merge all of these ideas. Although a worthy construct, at the individaul level we find the tensions as these constructs merge.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #25

#27
If we look at Japanese culture we see an boned based social construct. There is honer in family linage transactions and social interactions. Compare this to the USA where a level of honor exists but stops at the individaul within the group. The individaul will not sacrifice themselves if they feel they are β€œright”. What happens in a mass migration where these two social constructs evolve within social, proffesional and family structures? Americans saw the Japanese as stodgy and backwards, the Japanese saw Americans as flippant and no real understanding of humanity. Both of these constructs evolved within a vaccuum of existance. Enter the world of airplanes, telephones and internet. Each paradigm is exposed to the other. Add a dash of economic globalism and the countries now must adapt to each other. I am over simplyfing to make a point. Social constructs emerge from necessity. They were nesessary for the group they were designed. We call this culture. They worked. Now we see a new construct attempting to form under a global construct that is attempting to merge all of these ideas. Although a worthy construct, at the individaul level we find the tensions as these constructs merge.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#25
I raise my hat for you Harvey Lloyd because you could see the link between this buzz and the one on tension. Yes, social tension results from mass migrations and what I discussed under tension and its growing complexity extends to the discussions here. I dare say that my buzzes without your comments will lose at least 80% of their values. I am deeply grateful to you.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#24
Very interesting comment. Yes, opportunists find their way in chaos, but not in order. The immigration problem is in part a political one and some politicians find their way in chaos. I recall the reunion of Germany. Here, the nation is the same. Still; even though Germans had aspiration for this reunion, the process didn't go easily first. Some taxes were enforced on the rich, which made them unhappy. As for religion, it has been exploited not by politicians only, but also by even some religious groups. In chaos, anything may pass unnoticed. Some people find that the best for them to do is to carry many constructs. Depending on whom they are engaged with they express the thoughts that are acceptable to the group. They shall express different thoughts if they are with an opposing group. Mass migrations have caused some turmoils and instead of helping these to settle down those with self-interest agitated the situation further.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#23
There is one line in your comment that reflects exactly the idea of this post. That is linking migration of ideas and migration of people. Your wisdom line Harvey Lloyd reads " Ideas that enhance the social construct are seen skeptically at first but eventually get adopted". people don't travel as bodies only, but they also carry with them their culture and ideas. If these ideas or constructs don't mix well they they form what I call "micro-climates" in the host country. This you expressed elegantly "Mass migrations large enough to also bring their own social construct within a micro area of a nation state ...". Not all constructs are miscible and takes time to homogenize them.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #21

Your thoughts here really do address the very crux of social order and issues of the day. Reading some of the comments we can see the world view is quite scattered. Your post has caused deep thought as i review my own world view. Maybe i am too much the traditionalist but rather see the issues from three tiers. Group survival, economics, governance. Specifically in that order. I focus on group survival as the other two are emergent from this one. Group survival has evolved from hunter gatherer economies to shared thought or information economies. Each is still a group providing food clothing and shelter for itself. Your previous post on tension describes the stressors of group survival, whether a family group, business group or political group. The constraints on all of these groups should be provided within the social construct discussed in a previous concept. What happens when media debunks the social construct into name calling and shaming? (Both sides) You bring up a very touchy subject that reasonable people could work through. It seems today though, many in power have drank the Kool-Aid of media bias. Great thoughts and discussions as always.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #20

If we could look at the religions of the world and see them as social constructs that were developed as nation states were born, then we can establish that the β€œought” is established in these religions. Within each nation state i can walk out my door and the community β€œought” to work a specified way. I should be able to figure out how to be succsessful or at a minimum survive within the community/social group. Science and government do not provide the way forward but rather specifiy that which has been unsuccessful in the past and therefore we cant do that any more. Religion as a social construct offers a way forward by a nation state establishing clear ground rules for social interactions where risk is envolved. Unfortunately media has hijacked religion for their own use of obfuscating these social constructs. Give me chaos and i will show you ways to gain money and power. Firmly planted social constructs offer no volitility for one to gain money or power. Charlatans are easily spotted and isolated. Unfortunately this nation state chaos has made the charlatans into leaders. The media is choosing sides while labeling with fear tactics to disrupt the social construct. (One of our legislative folks here stated on national TV that we will all be dead in 12 years due to climate change.) The social construct of social groups is the egg that holds our thoughts, ideas and hopes together. Maybe with a lot of naivety but it is the grounds of hope in endeavor. Without these we are left with media dictating the environment of social constructs through fear.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #19

The concept of migration is deeply rooted in hope and ideals. Historically we find that groups move and form social constructs that allows for successful living. We may agree or disagree on the humanity of these constructs. However these constructs are critical to a civilizations success. Fast forward to today with our ability to travel, communicate and socialize in almost instantaneous ways and we find that the construct of each nation state is under pressure. Social constructs that share generational refinements do not change easily and become very skeptical of those who come into the construct with different ideas. Ideas that enhance the social construct are seen skeptically at first but eventually get adopted. Small groups migrating in hope of achievement by enhanceing not only the group but the social construct in another nation state are generally skeptically welcomed. Mass migrations large enough to also bring their own social construct within a micro area of a nation state challenges the meaning of the established construct. Laws and policies developed over time under a social construct are now leveraged in ways that are outside the established construct. Is this good or bad? Your post on tension describes the natural human response to change. The larger question is who is expected to adapt to what construct?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#21
This is a very considerable idea and is worthy of pursuing.

Lada 🏑 Prkic

Lada 🏑 Prkic

2 years ago #17

#20
Maybe also to discuss one more aspect of the migration of ideas such as the migration of philosophical or even theological ideas and thoughts from one culture to another, independently of the migration of people.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#19
Dear Lada- your comment reflects exactly one main issue I wanted to discuss in this buzz. The problems of people migrating and ideas migrating share common grounds> They both need to adapt and be agile to the new environment. As also you highlighted, many ideas have to experience forced migration seeking new potential to survive. In our complex world adaptation is a key factor for success.

Lada 🏑 Prkic

Lada 🏑 Prkic

2 years ago #15

Dear Ali, you asked do ideas realisation introduce a new cause for people to migrate. I say yes too. People migrate not only for searching for security, justice, or for economic reasons. They migrate due to other push factors such as a lack of the freedom to express ideas (ideas isolation in your table), and they move to another place which they think is a fertile land for their ideas. But often when ideas are transferred to a "new land", they are going through changes because they face the requirement of that new environment and they need to adapt. Just as immigrants who must go through the (suffering) process of adaptation and adjustment to be eventually accepted.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#16
You are right dear Clau Valerio because immigration is a complex problem and has many interacting parts. Studying such problems requires understanding the causes, which as not easy to find out. Moving to a new land imposes so many problems at first such as the capacity of the immigrants to cope with being away from home, new language and culture barriers, acceptance of the citizens of the host country and many more. The interaction of these causes may is not easy to imagine what effects they produce. Not all people have the same ability to face such issues equally and the outcomes shall differ.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#15
Yes, you refer is different from forced immigration because it generates huge psychological problems. to the forced immigration by dictatorship and the associated problems it creates. This is a serious problem and you are right dear Jerry. There are self-chosen immigration' seeking better lives and better incomes. However; this is different from forced immigration whereby people find themselves expelled from their land and the main drive for them in this case shall be survival.. This is a basic needs oh humans and creates different and more acute problems than seeking voluntary migration to improve ones' life.

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

2 years ago #12

#12
Dr. Ali, The combination of global warming and the growth of Fascism is going ot continue to cause problems around the world. Until countries can come ot the oint that the rule of law precludes government by the richest and/or most powerful we will have continuing problems. The Syrian people are only the latest example of how a population can be decimated. In my view the current government of Syria should be outlawed and terminated by the nations of the world that agree that chemical weapons are not to be used...period. As to the acceptance of the old customs by younger refugees there are no hard and fast rules but time has shown in multiple countries and cultures that part of the newcomers will assimilate, intermarry and add to the culture of the new country while others will cling to the old culture and find a way to live along side the folks that preceded them. And so it goes.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#8
I don't say this is an easy issue Franci\ud83d\udc1dEugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador. I wanted to highlight in this buzz the idea that when ideas migrate they suffer what humans suffer. This may lead to the killing of many ideas seeking asylum prematurely. I agree on your highlighted points and the immigration problem is only getting more difficult.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#7
Thank you dear Debasish Majumder. Yes, this is a serious issue because people care more about losses in the early stages because of their lowered productivity. Financial losses are more important than humans . Imagine some people displaced because of a volcano or earth quake and how many people will understand their difficulties if they are located. Social acceptance if accompanied by immediate financial losses shall decline. This leads to lowered productivity of the displaced and again reducing their social acceptance being a financial burden. It is vicious circle my friend.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#6
Jerry Fletcher- great comment and yes, it takes an adjusting period for immigrants to adjust and merge into the new cultures. This time lag can be expensive though. For example, recently a Syrian immigrant to Germany shot his daughter to death because she wouldn't oblige with the Syrian traditions. Sometimes, just leaving the established pattern may anger people to commit suicide. We have in Jordan almost one million Syrian refugees and their experience isn't different from what you described. The economic hardship makes the acceptance of immigrants a thorny issue.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#5
Thank you my friend Edward Lewellen. They say nature abhors voids and so is our brains. Yes, as you said, they strive to fill the fill the voids. Sometimes, this filling is inline with you wrote "Unfortunately, if there isn't enough information to find an association to a belief we currently hold, our brain will associate things together just to avoid confusion" I really enjoyed your reasoning why we form the wrong ideas or tend to refuse new ones that don't fall in established patter. You convince me more the the migration of people and migration of ideas share same issues..

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#4
For the events called "trial and error" together with the sources that justify them, in the present they no longer have//would have origin and less continuity.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#3
THE HISTORY", Human acts is already late, am I wrong? Are we wrong? URGENT TO REPEAL THE LAW (LAWS) TO GIVE A UNIVERSAL DOSE TO THE WORLD OF IRRATIONAL HUMANS, UNCONSCIOUS BEING AWARE. You impose a serious question dear Oswaldo Enrique Diaz Delgado. It requires deep thinking.

Franci 🐝Eugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador

Immigration will always exist. Can't blame people hoping for a better life plus what they have to offer can be a societal enhancement for their chosen destination. Of course, there is the other side of the coin, meaning infiltration of disease and criminals. Also, culture adjustments, unemployment, language barriers, etc. Since, immigration is nothing new, seems there shoulda/coulda/woulda been a better way to handle the influx. IMO, it's difficult for any country to deal with hordes of people knocking on their door. But, then this is just another day in life.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #4

intriguing buzz indeed sirAli \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! i wonder what actually causes want to emerge? is not it an external factor? equally when productivity of an immigrant decline, how far we are sincere about the valuable human resource? we hardly ponder about the loss of wealth, but focused on only revenue derivation mechanism and according devalue the concern human resource. we may confuse with profit and wealth and if one may fail to attain the aspiring profit, we tend to judge the potential as well doubt the capacity of the concern human resource. there is always a discerning distinction between wealth and profit and we tend to remain ignorant about wealth, but crazy to gain only instant profit which equally few may successfully translate to their material wealth. however, enjoyed reading this sensible buzz sir and shared. thank you for the buzz.

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

2 years ago #3

Dr. Ali, I'm fortunate to live in a country that has benefited from multiple migrations. with the exception of slaves and indentured servants thee massive numbers that came here were, in their minds, going to a place of greater opportunity or at least where they could make some money for a family left behind. The massive turmoil in your model happened in varying amounts. Some were confined in ghettos. Some were literally marched to quay and put on the next ship out. But still they come. I may live in one of the few places in the world that is still desirable for the refugees running from the growth of Fascism. North of the USA in Canada they may be slightly more accepting. Will there be difficulties? Yes. Will there be problems in assimilation or the lack thereof? Yes. It takes a generation or two and a few Romeo and Juliet stories but the cultures either merge or find way to live side by side. And so it goes.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#1
`You are very observant Pascal Derrien because two ideas were combined to write this buzz. Initially, they were two ideas for two buzzes, but then I changed my mind. Immigrants needs adjustment period before they can enrich the foreign land with their experiences. People see the initial rising costs and grumble. But then they realize their benefits. The USA thrived because of immigrants because of the variety of experiences and ideas it attracted. The USA was very kind to immigrants. we are living the issue today with millions of Syrians forced to migrate and the initial reaction to their arrival by many countries.

Pascal Derrien

Pascal Derrien

2 years ago #1

There are two things in your post one is about treating the symptoms vs the root cause of a problem and the other one of economic foot print of migration. I agree on adaptation & adjustment however I am of the opposite opinion on stigma (while it is there low level jobs etc etc ) however half of the fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or their children for example and that's US only

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