Mind Detergents


Mind Detergents

In a recent social gathering, I asked wives and husbands if they would be willing to reveal some of their marriage memories. The excitement built up and I heard many memories. I noticed that the majority of them were sad and bad ones. Hardly, any good memory was revealed. This is a sort of β€œbad memory bias” since we tend to remember what we describe as negative memories because they still hurt us.

One bad memory apparently has the power to sweep away tens of good ones.
Ali Anani

The topic started to brew in my mind. Suddenly, I recalled a comment by John Rylance, which he made responding to my buzz β€œRemoving Hurting Memory Stains” and if there is a need for β€œmind detergents” to clean grudge and hatred from our minds that keep haunting us. John wrote β€œIf such a detergent were marketed. It would have to be carefully phrased. Most detergents claim to make things "whiter than white" or colored "brighter than bright” It might even say you would be flushed with success”.

The idea that finding a β€œmind-detergent” then started to horrify me. What if I steal something and I may get rid of my feelings of guilt leading to shame could be washed away by using a detergent? What chaos would result from a detergent that would not make the white whiter; in opposite, it would darken the white.

The comment of Harvey Lloyd on my previous buzz then popped up. Harvey wrote β€œThe question is should I also experience shame because of my guilt? Harvey concluded his comment by writing β€œGuilt + Shame = Arrogance or retreat. This to me is where the new definition of guilt has brought forward a new formula within definition”.

Guilt and shame reinforce each other and hence we tend to remember their resulting exponential effect. However; we tend sometimes to exaggerate their combined effects for no good reason. Events are of two major types: controllable and uncontrollable. We tend to mix the two and feel guilty about events that were beyond our control. Here, the feelings of guilt and shame are baseless; yet we allow them to dominate us and control our lives.

What I find quite interesting about β€œuncontrollable emotions” is their influence by our state during recalling them. We tend to vary the memory depending on our emotional state. The sensitivity of these memories to our initial states of narrating them may influence the story of the memory greatly.

Controllable events may lead to more controllable memories. If I intentionally hurt somebody and I have the self-control not to feel guilty and then shameful for my ill-doings then I may exercise more control on the outcomes. I wonder what β€œmemory detergents” thieves, oppressors, occupants of people’s dwellings and a long-chain of intentional acts that leave the aggressors with no feelings of guilt leading to shame! Is it grudge from bad experiences that deprive some people from feeling the exponential compound effects of guilt and shame? Apparently, it is so because these people keep repeating their vicious doings without a hair on their heads moving.

Understanding the combined effect of guilt and shame is a worthy topic. What is your take on this topic?


thumb_up Relevant message Comment
Comments
Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

I have just noticed this post has eighteen thousand vies. This is fantastic. I want to thank all readers for their wonderful support

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#50
I need myself a memory detergent Robert Cormack for I only remember is reading this story more than fifty years ago.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#49
Your steps make senseKevin Baker. The problem for me is to be able to leave the attractor of old memories to a new one.

Robert Cormack

Robert Cormack

1 year ago #42

Interesting subject, Ali. Wasn't something like this the subject of Anthony Burgess's "Clockwork Orange"?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#47
As our societies get more connected the local decision-making becomes increasingly more important. Leaders who decide in such cases negate the laws of nature, In complex systems the role of leaders become a supervisory one that individual follow simple rules.So, yes I am in agreement with your comment Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

1 year ago #40

Dr. Ali, Day by day I am more convinced that when it comes to any important decision the appropriate question is "Who decides?" Senior officers of governments should not be given that right. That way lies Fascism, now rapent in the world. It is the same with religions. Faith is an individual right not subject to the control of a factotum reigning over others and decreeing behavior. At every crossroads of command versus the human soul we must strive to yield tothe individual, not the mass and definitely not the self proclaimed deciders.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Thank you Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee for sharing the buzz

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#44
Jerry Fletcher- I am glad that beBee restored this buzz and so I am able to respond to your wise comment. Unless and until we can "see more" it would, in my view be wiser to observe the behavior of those with apparent differences from the "norm."A key point in your comment is "".I subscribe to your thinking and I feel it is observation that makes the difference. A question though- what if I am in a state of hatred for a person- with I be able to observe him with a "neutral" eye?

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

1 year ago #37

Dr. Ali I read Phil Friedman's missive on ethics and then peeled the cover on this little bomb. The words that come immediately to mind are lather, rinse repeat. the difficulty with this subject is that we can't, with any real hope of success, sterilize minds. The reason is that all human behavior is conditional but more importantly contains all the possibilities. Imagine our response capability to be Yin and Yang multiplied ad infinitum and linked across the universe as some quantum physicists have posited. If we look at the mind as a universe we are trying to map it from inside the plane of the elliptic of one galaxy. Unless and until we can "see more" it would, in my view be wiser to observe the behavior of those with apparent differences from the "norm." For the moment I would prefer to have some way of identifying those that operate well outside the bounds of society. I would not subject them to a wash cycle unless and until they were seen to be causing physical harm to someone. I am forever convinced that the question we need to ask always is "Who Decides?" And so it goes.

John Rylance

John Rylance

1 year ago #36

#42
Thank you for your response.  I find it alarming someone could think that making someone believe they had killed someone, was good entertainment. I wonder what exactly the effect of experience was on the unfortunate three of thinking they had committed murder and finding out they had not.

John Rylance

John Rylance

1 year ago #35

#39
Thank you for your reply.  It is always interesting to see how others interpret a words meaning/usage. I accept what you write re the Do you remember. I like to think that when I ask the question it is about a positive occurrence rather than "rubbing someone's nose " in a failure. I would like to think mine is more prevalent, than the latter. Maybe I need to take off my rose coloured glasses.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#39
Your comment reminds me of negotiation skills and how to find a solution rather than a "deal breaker". It is not necessarily unconditional love, but could be unconditional commitment to keep the wheel rolling. Or, I could be wrong!

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #33

#32
It fits quite well. Unconditional love means i will continue to accommodate what you are doing, but it would make it easier if we could find another way to do something. Much like what you stated. What you are doing is not a "deal breaker" in the relationship, but i would like to discuss better ways to do things. The question "do you remember when" can be a great conversation starter or it can be seen as a loaded question. A question with the intention to show the other person they were idiot back then and it is the same as now. Justification for a position. Freely we can admit that whatever i am doing is causing issues with a relationship that i value. Unconditionally i can overlook the delivery and see the point. Then i can take responsibility for solution within the point. Unfortunately responsibility to be a part of the solution gets lost when i focus on the delivery. You are on point with my thoughts as we look at unconditional love. I think it might be helpful to understand that within unconditional love we have "no deal". I see the point but i lack the knowledge, skill or the time to participate, no deal. (Take responsibility for...)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

I sympathize with your point and its validity. A question remains- why people tell about 5-6 people good news and about 30 people for bad news? Why people tend to get around a car accident than a happy occasion on the same road?

John Rylance

John Rylance

1 year ago #31

#34
I take your point. However as positive person I find it difficult to think a Do you remember? would mainly elicit a negative response. I'm a great believer in trying to as the song goes " accentuate the positive"  Admittedly it isn't always easy, but I try.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#33
Edward Lewellen

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#32
John Rylance will respond with great thoughts.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#31
A starting point is your question, John, "Do you remember when .............? ". True, a memory may trigger another one. Unfortunately, triggering bad memories seems to need low activation energy". Maybe because feeling of hurt, insult and the like are very strong.

John Rylance

John Rylance

1 year ago #27

#21
I'm not clear did they actually push someone off a roof? Or was it an ending when they metaphorically pushed someone, knowing no one would actually be harmed. There is a huge difference between saying I'll kill, and actually doing it. Bear in mind Derren Brown is an illusionist, an as such creates illusions such creates situations like this. There is a school of thought that in such situations you do the things knowing full well you are part of an illusion and the outcome is stage managed.  if they genuinely pushed anyone then Derren would be charged with incitement at least and no longer performing. The emphasis on performing.

John Rylance

John Rylance

1 year ago #26

#26
I offer this observation on unconditional love. In response to someone you care about's inappropriate behaviour, you can say directly or indirectly to them "I like/love you, but I don't always like what you do"   The inference being you will continue to care about them, but continuance of the behaviour will put a strain on the relationship" I not sure how this fits in with what you are saying about unconditional love?

John Rylance

John Rylance

1 year ago #25

#29
I agree Ali.  A thought perhaps the negative memories re marriage were a prelude to positive outcomes. Maybe a follow up question would be what happened next. It might just be "kiss and make up" Equally a positive memory maybe the aftermath of some negative occurrence. While our memories are invariably selective, they are triggers to others. A starting point is often "Do you remember when .............? 

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Thank you dear for sharing the buzz.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#28
Memory management is worthy a buzz on its own. Sometimes we distort memories with illusions.

Pascal Derrien

Pascal Derrien

1 year ago #22

Memory is a very valuable human currency the problem is that it is managed by illusionists

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#26
I tagged you because of your recent buzzes and comments Cyndi wilkins and I am glad I did. Your cynefin of thoughts rings so many bills for us to think about. You focused your attention to the spaces between the domains of the cynefin and the choices we may take while there. As I said before, this is an area that has not received due attention, except for the space between chaos and complexity (edge of chaos). Your ideas shall stand the test of time and I bit.

Cyndi wilkins

Cyndi wilkins

1 year ago #20

"Each day we experience these conditional spaces where we must apply unconditional thought/love". Thank you for the tag on this comment Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee...as it ties in nicely with my thoughts on 'conscious choice' Each choice contains within it an action resulting from the intention of our thoughts...The 'space between' our thoughts/intentions and our actions is where we choose, either consciously or unconsciously, how we conduct ourselves within each interaction. We all have many different aspects of self that encompass the entire spectrum of human emotion. As I referred to in the 'Cynefin' piece, whatever aspect of self (or personalty) is the strongest will be the 'dominant domain'. The quality of our consciousness will create our experience. We might pause here to ask ourselves, are we more loving and kind? Or do we tend to lean in the direction of being vindictive and selfish? We absolutely cannot create consciously until we become aware of all different aspects of self, then we may choose accordingly how we wish to conduct our behavior to create the best outcomes. Otherwise, it is an unconscious free-for-all resulting from the domain of chaos. The good news is, as Harvey Lloyd has stated, every day offers us the opportunity to apply our thoughts to that of unconditional love.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#13
John Rylance- I am waiting eagerly for your addition of a layer or more for the "onion of discussions"

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#21
Great story and sometimes we believe in our hypothesis. I liked the early indications that may build up to make a person familiar with his/her doings. Like you said, if I torture a cat and then I might torture something else. This way I find at some stage torturing people is normal. This is a fact and I loved your neurological analysis of this phenomenon. No wonder dear friend that neuroscience is gaining huge importance and rightly so.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#15
There are occasions in life where the origin of the problems we refer to others, being innocent and helpful, it is up to us to bear the foreign penalties of who (is) have a profound loss of human identity, and I say human identity because they believe they correspond to a different race that does not exist on our only planet. This is a challenging comment dear Oswaldo Enrique Diaz Delgado

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#16
Cyndi wilkins "Each day we experience these conditional spaces where we must apply unconditional thought/love". Yes, it is the breathing space that shall help us make a choice.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#17
I am glad to see you back on this platform my good friend Edward Lewellen. Thank you so much for your elaboration. I tried to highlight your second point in the buzz. Your analysis is damn right. The question is how come some people can cause harm to others and not feel guilty or ashamed to do so. Did they have a secret detergent? My analysis is that they have acquired so much greed and grudge that makes harming others a trivial issue for them---till they fall in their trap. I do thank you again for your very meaningful comment.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #14

#11
#12 Your examples exist in all spaces. one individual interpreting their environment from the perspective of another. This is a challenging space. The challenge in unconditional love/grace is to extend it when we don't sense it is deserved. It is an axiom we live by. Not something that is conditional upon existential reflection. Each day we experience these conditional spaces where we must apply unconditional thought/love. Not easy by any respects, but we do it out of our own service for our own joy. We do have the option to seek a different space. What i have experienced within conditional love is bitterness. A condition of the heart that is similar to drinking poison yourself in anticipation of someone else getting hurt. This robs us of joy. Even if we are right. Great thoughts and discussion.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #13

#13
If we open up windows of thought around conditional vs unconditional, the words then become alive. We experience with our students the conditional love extend because of their disability. Their behavior tends to cause a withdrawal of love and statements of condition to receive love. This is confusing to a young brain already disabled. But marriages can find themselves in the same place as you have suggested. Love is conditional on unstated performance standards. That makes for exhausting marriages.

John Rylance

John Rylance

1 year ago #12

Thank you for the mention. I enjoy you're what I term onion posts which truly become multilayered, as Harvey et al add their thoughts. Certainly they lead into some unexpected directions.  Already this current post has my mind buzzing around questions around marriage and things should be conditional or unconditional. I shall return later.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#11
Amigo Oswaldo Enrique Diaz Delgado- this sound interesting. There are societies that dictate being far/distant from applying (accepting) their own reason - relationship within improper acts.There are events where the tendency encourages individuals to compete within improper acts to be recognized within their own competitive verb to β€œSET DIFFERENCES”. This is pertinent to the comments of Harvey Lloyd below and I hope that Harvey would be available to comment.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#9
I concur and I share your view here. Love/grace of mothers is the proof. It is spontaneous love and it flows effortlessly. Is in it better than converting our energies to the other direction?b The directions of arrogance or retreat, as you pointed out Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #9

#8
Astute understanding of the dynamics of energy. I would submit that the energy could take a new form of Love. Or better stated, a reinforcement of unconditional grace within the group. Amazingly i have witnessed success in its many forms. Most success that is fulfilling to the group comes from the unconditional acceptance (Love/Grace). I have also witnessed forced success and the outcome is bitter sweet. We won the war over failure but all of our legions are dead. Without the axiomatic unconditional space the energy will find a space to exploit. Typically retreat (Depression) or arrogance (aggression).

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#7
" My thoughts here are to remove the energy of emotion not eliminate emotions". As simple as this may appear, it is profound. Yes, we can't eliminate emotions, but we can "remove their energies". This is a huge issue and I may ask eliminate (remove), but if we eliminate energy to what form of energy it shall transform. Energy can't be lost and its conservation requires that it transforms to another energy. Now, new windows of thoughts are opening up.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #7

#6
In my readings and understandings you describe a β€œsociopath” a person who does not experience any of the remorse emotions prior to actions or post actions. Almost pure logic of cause and effect with deterrence to others who may be impacted. My thoughts here are to remove the energy of emotion not eliminate emotions. Should the emotions not exist then this is an act of folly. In a recent discussion with neighbors we concluded that passion levels are all the same. Spilling your coffee and getting fired are the same levels of passion. If this is a true statement then existential crisis is the only way we know how to communicate. Sociopath’s excluded, self awareness of our communication styles would go a long way in creating a group dynamic that is unconditional.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#3
#5 Your comments are deep and integral to the buzz. I agree with you. Surely, as emotions lead to actions energy is associated with emotions. The stronger the emotions are, the greater higher their energy levels are and the stronger the actions shall be. I tried to explore emotionless people- people who lost the sense of guilt and shame. If a thief steals repeatedly does he feel shameful? Does he care for his social belonging? These thieves act and so have some energy. Is it the energy of lust for revenge? I am reading your comments and I am trying to find an answer.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #5

#4
The two conditions you speak to here are very powerful motivations for the emotions we hold. When i say powerful i mean that emotions are experienced at various energy levels. My hope is that these styled discussions explain or assist in understanding we give energy to emotions. Emotions are a part of life and remind us the need for group acceptance. I know that you know that i need your acceptance. Although we may experience guilt and shame the energy level can be modified through understanding the dynamics of human nature. When i experience a group that my participation is predicated on conditional axioms then i must choose to accept them as part of the group acceptance. I also must understand that upon accepting these axioms what is the mechanism of forgivness. I know i will fail at some point. If i cant understand these points then i am unwilling to join the group. Guilt and shame become a part of the conditional acceptance process i know i can not survive.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#2
I am glad you have been an active part of the increasing complexity of humans and the impact of emotions on these relationships. This buzz was inspired by a comment of yours Harvey Lloyd on my previous buzz. I am not less perplexed than you are. The more I get into the sea of emotions, the deeper it gets and the darker it turns. This is the beauty because even though we get less sure of what we know, we still continue the learning journey even with more thrust. I shall not be surprised if I get carried away by one of your comments my friend.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #3

Fighting for group participation, trust, and the event that brought guilt on are two separate issues. If we leave the group dynamic as unconditional then we can work on the axiom or the skill that is in deficit. When we do not express the fact that we all make mistakes within new challenges we leave the guilty party believing that the group participation is conditional. This leaves the question, What do i need to do to regain trust within the group? A daunting task if ever there was one. If group participation is unconditional then each participant live within a space where failure is part of success. Guilt maybe present, but forgiveness is unconditional. Eliminating group shaming by default. This creates a diverse environment where folks feel free to present chaotic solutions. Without the fear of guilt being established through shaming.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

1 year ago #2

Like many topics you bring forward, the layers of complexity grow as we attempt to understand the impact of our own emotional makeup. The difficulty arises when we look at scientific or axiomatic understandings of human nature. We all want acceptance within a group. This single statement is what gives guilt/shame dominion over our existence. Guilt is something we experience through existential judgement by others or through our own axiomatic comparison with our beliefs. Shame is the understanding of how the group might receive us post guilt. The shaming aspect of group dynamics involves the perceived trust vs the act that brought forward the guilt. Not to carry this but so deep into the abyss, i would state that leadership has to determine whether group participation is conditional or unconditional? I may be guilty of breaking a perceived axiom within the group, but the group recognizes my need of the group as sacred. Leaving the group in an unconditional state. If group participation is conditional then shame is a part of the dynamic.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

John Rylance- you are mentioned in the buzz in the order of your mention.

More articles from Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

View blog