Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات · 2 دقائق وقت القراءة · ~10 ·

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Removing Hurting Memory Stains

Removing Hurting Memory Stains

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You want to remove bad and hurting memories. Memories that haunt us from joyful living and confine us to living in sadness. These stains of bad memories tend to intensify the more we think about them. The more we do, the less likely we are able to remove them. We intensify what we are trying to forget. When we enter the reinforcing loop of bad memories. thoughts we reinforce them and they become a habit that is difficult to break.

The idea that popped up in my mind is if we are able to remove the stains of dirt in our clothes, can we then do the same to remove the stains of bad memories, bad feelings, bad experiences and bad words in similar ways that we remove tangible dirt?

The same question extends to other areas in our lives. For example:

· reducing the surface tension of water and removing the tension among groups.

· the harmful effect of taking excessive sugar to the human body and the harm of giving people too sugary compliments. Can we transfer the ideas of the intangible sugar intake to the dealing with taking too sugary compliments?

· The formation of detergent aggregates (known as micelles), silica micelles and the formation of social hubs that look like micelles on social networks. Is it better to call them “social micelles”?

I wrote a book in Arabic titled “Taming the Future”. The book dealt with some very sensitive issues such as making peace with enemies. A famous author wrote a review on the book in which he said “My mind agrees with you. My heart doesn’t”. This years later reminded me of surface-active agents (commonly known as surfactants) that we use in detergents to remove dirt. These agents have two parts. A long chain of water-fearing chain and an active group is water-loving. Hatred and love of water contained in the same molecule. Same with the commenter as his mind loved what I wrote, but his heart didn’t. Can this accumulation of two opposing feelings in the same person may helpful in any way?

It is this bipolarity of love and hatred that help us remove stains of our clothes. The water-fearing chain of the detergent hide inside the body of water, whereas the water-loving groups stay on the outside.

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Molecules as shown above aggregate in a spherical form together. These aggregations are called micelles. Look how bipolarity of love and hatred led to order. This feature allows the surfactant molecules to reach the oily stains and remove them.

It amazes me how the same concept extended recently to a new drug to deal with hurting memories that self-reinforcing the more we remember them. These “memory stains” block us from living healthily and joyfully. It amazed me that the drug has a similar structure to detergents with a water-hating chain and two water-loving groups in the same molecule. Our brains are mostly water and it seems to me that this chemical is a detergent for stains of bad memories. This commercial drug based on this chemical is called propranolol. The removal of memory stains is indifferent from removing stains on our clothes.

How many years of research would have been saved had we realized the connections between the tangibles and intangibles?

I dedicate this buzz to the motivator Cyndi wilkins


التعليقات

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #60

#72
This is a great conclusion to the exchange of comments and this is the way it should be Gerald Hecht

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #59

#70
I am writing soon a buzz in which I shall mention the chemistry of food and its relationship to our characters. Some people breakdown when we "boil" them. Others disintegrate to reactive components that react again to produce a better product. Others have flavors, but they release them if "boiled". I want to say that people will respond differently to comments. As long as these comments are written with no intention to harm others they are OK. I wonder what you think of Part 2 of this buzz Gerald Hecht https://www.bebee.com/producer/@ali-anani/dilution-of-pain Maybe you may consider writing a comment there to explain what you intended with no intention to hurt, but to exchange knowledge. This is what I gathered from your comments myself.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #58

#68
No, you are spot on John Rylance. In fact, you are correct. There are cases in which if you mix two detergents the outcome is terrible bad. This is a fact and I salute you for reminding me of this fact.

John Rylance

منذ 4 سنوات #57

#66
Mmm. If such a detergent were marketed. It would have to be carefully phrased. Most detergents claim to make things "whiter than white" or coloureds "brighter than bright"  It might even say you would be flushed with success.   I apologise in advance if this offends

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #56

#66
Thank you Franci\ud83d\udc1dEugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador for commenting and sharing the buzz. I shall publish soon the concept of brain detergent. Meanwhile, I am amazed by your comment because I have just finished reviewing Part 2 of this buzz. You wrote "finding a remedy to control it within oneself is a stronger character builder". You shall find how I arrived at a similar conclusion in my next buzz. I use the example of women who were raped and managed to transform the trauma into new beings and how they accomplished this.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #55

#63
Glad I am out of my chaos as I have just finished drafting the buzz. It is challenging Cyndi wilkins

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #54

#63
Finding the order in the chaos is the challenge

Cyndi wilkins

منذ 4 سنوات #53

#60
My head is still exploding with this one! I don't want to get too far ahead of myself... My mantra of 'exploding ideas' is still a bit in that 'chaotic' phase...It will take some time for me to gather the appropriate pieces to fit this challenging puzzle;-)

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #52

#61
I wish you would be nearby Gerald Hecht to see the effort I am doing too accommodate all the comments and the new ideas that keep popping up and bursting ideas (popcorn ideas) in my head.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #51

#59
Yes, Gerald Hecht is writing another. Ideas keep blossoming.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #50

Cyndi wilkins has just published a post related to this one and it is a must read https://www.bebee.com/producer/@cyndi-wilkins/the-apollo-paradigm
#23
PTSD and Complex PTSD can be resolved, but not easily. I do know that emotional partitioning occurs with Complex PTSD that should not be attempted to resolve in a weekly hour--it simply cannot be resolved in a weekly hour. If help is given, meds are often not needed--perhaps should not be given. We live in a pill culture. Pills only serve to maintain--not solve. Breaking down emotional partitioning requires support and even a bit of solitude. It is not for the faint-hearted.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #48

#55
Now, I regret everyday that I didn't exchange comments with you my friend. Great suggestion and I hope you have enough material now for your post and pod cast

Cyndi wilkins

منذ 4 سنوات #47

#41
The color of transformation as I understand it is yellow....Perhaps we can rename this shift in consciousness as the 'Apollo Paradigm'...In reference to the Greek God god of light, healing, music and prophecy;-)

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #46

#53
Dear Jerry- thank you and I am happy with the varying comments agreeing and disagreeing with this concept. The discussions have helped in improving it and even transforming it.

Jerry Fletcher

منذ 4 سنوات #45

Dr. Ali, Brain detergent. What a concept!

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #44

#50
Indeed they are.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #43

#49
Your story is a perfect example of thoughts transformation and it explains well what yoou talked about in your earlier comments about emotions and confirmation bias.

Harvey Lloyd

منذ 4 سنوات #42

#48
Each of these areas comes with critical thinking aspects that help break the cycle of limiting beliefs. It makes for a great study and a self awareness journey of how use these to buttress our self image.

Harvey Lloyd

منذ 4 سنوات #41

#45
A very old negotiating course i reviewed discussed two gentlemen entering town to purchase a 25 million dollar property. The buyer asked his assistant to go over to the firm selling the property and make a pre meeting offer of 6 million. The aid became indignant and was very embarrassed to take the offer to the current owners. Reluctantly he went off and made the offer. The owners too were indignant, they stated they could take no less than 12 million. Upon the aids return he ranted about the embarrassment while indicting the new price was 12 million. Needless to say the buyer laughed and said that your embarrassment saved me several million dollars. What confirmation bias was held by the aid and the seller? Both were held in the grips of pride and both made a fatal negotiating mistake. Emotional reasoning. The facts would dictate that the buyer was fishing and was committed to negotiate at much higher levels. Their emotions got the best of them. So yes thought transformation is possible and is a part of CBT process.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #40

#44
Great examples, and the question what senses are involved in each of them.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #39

#42
We reached the moon, and are still don't know how to deal with memories as we have many models and thoughts. Complexity requires knowing the simple rules that led to complexity, but the challenge is finding the simple rules.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #38

#43
I experience this myself a lot. Like reading your comments, out of nowhere they remind me of old memories and bring new linkages to them. I am aware of the book, but I need to read it again. But that all senses are involved in triggering memories sounds correct to me.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #37

#40
Do you consider this as a for of "thoughts transformation"?

Harvey Lloyd

منذ 4 سنوات #36

All or none thinking Labeling Focusing on the negative / filtering The ‘shoulds’ Blaming Predicting the future Overgeneralization Mind reading Catastrophizing Emotional reasoning Personalization Jumping to conclusions These would be the cognitive biases that we create memories. And....recycle old memories.

Harvey Lloyd

منذ 4 سنوات #35

L. Ron Hubbard wrote a couple of books concerning memories and deep seeded trauma. I believe the books went off to become a religion at some point and his research was pretty much discredited. But nonetheless he brought forward some serious ideas concerning memories. During traumatic or emotional events we not only store away the events as remembered but we store information from all of our senses. Smells lighting and even tastes associated with the event get stored also. Various stored memory components would then be triggered if enough of the smells, lights and tones were sensed. Causing a feeling similar to the experience with no known linkage to the current event. It was an interesting read and rooted in basic logic it made sense. The scientific reality is beyond me. Certain external stimulus in combination can conjure up an emotional response to present environments, keeping the cycle rolling. Interesting

Harvey Lloyd

منذ 4 سنوات #34

https://beckinstitute.org/cognitive-model/ Here is one of the models used in therapy around the issues that emerge from memories. This webpage gives a good overview of what the procedure looks like. Pay close attention to the pyramid where it states auto-thoughts and images. This is the space where confirmation bias and emotional reasoning emerge. Cyndi wilkins is correct in pointing out the cycle and its need to be broken. CBT is a way to approach the cycle.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #33

#39
I love this part dear Cyndi wilkins "It takes practice, but in doing so every time". If a person does that soon this shall become a new habit and the formation of a new loop emerges effortlessly. You know we shall this way produce a modified blue Ocean Strategy- not even modified to the extent that you and I may call it the color of transformation (if there is one other than blue).

Harvey Lloyd

منذ 4 سنوات #32

#38
I read the comments and each is pointing towards emotional reasoning and confirmation bias. Staying within a simple framework of a complex issue i would state that the mind engages with the outside world and either receives confirmation of bias or conviction. This in turn creates a memory of the event. "Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own thoughts, unguarded. But once mastered, no one can help you as much, not even your father or mother." Buddha Thoughts float upon our own emotional rationalization and confirmation bias of memories. If we are to remove the stain we would need to look at our own emotional and confirmational biases. I think we would realize what we thought was a stain was merely a brick in the road to wisdom.

Cyndi wilkins

منذ 4 سنوات #31

#32
"We are the ones who control our memory and our forgetting, it is the brain itself and our own mind that chooses what to stay with." Exactly Clau Valerio As aforementioned by Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee..."When we enter the reinforcing loop of bad memories. thoughts we reinforce become a habit that is difficult to break." So I'm going to shift gears in the strategy we are creating and replace REMOVE and REDUCE with RECOGNIZE and RELEASE to promote RECOVERY...When you catch yourself going down that rabbit hole...grab that furry litter critter by the tail and change the direction of your thoughts...It takes practice, but in doing so every time this 'habit energy' arises, you will eventually create a new 'thought loop' to reinforce...What you choose to think is entirely up to you.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #30

#37
I don't know dear Harvey Lloyd and I,and the new formula that we arrived at. I care to read what you think of it. The formula in comments #20 and #21 suggest adding transformation of memories and you suggest here there conversion before from bitter to sweet. I am in agreement with you. In chemistry, use use ligands (an ion or molecule attached to a metal atom) to change the molecules' properties. Now, you comments alerts me to a new phrase and idea- making "memory ligands". Wow! that seems to be a new idea. I am going to explore it. Keep the motivation my friend.

Harvey Lloyd

منذ 4 سنوات #29

Memories are a concept that challenges science. A single memory can bring folks to tears or elevate them to greatness. I have always thought that two types of memories exist. Memories of loss or gain. Each of these outcomes can be remembered as self righteous (Justification) or victimizing (Hurting). I don't believe we can wash them away but time does have a way of reducing their proactive value. One of the key elements to being conscious is that we can reframe the memory. Does the memory represent loss or learning? Does the memory represent serving others or myself? Regardless of how it impacts me, how did it impact others? There does exist a single memory expunging action we can partake. We can seek forgiveness (Detergent). You are a phone call, email or personal discussion away from taking the energy out of a memory. More importantly converting the memory into something fruitful.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #28

#33
Thank you my dear and mature friend Clau Valerio. I used the word removal because of the metaphor I used (the detergent metaphor). Maybe you have an idea for a better metaphor. However; we might not be able to remove bad memories that are part of us. We could transform them. I n view of your second comment I am now looking forward to your comment on the suggested formula. I know of people who suffered from trauma and yet transformed to better people. The problem is that many people keep remembering the sad and hurting part of what they experience and so it builds up and becomes unmanageable. Timing is also a crucial factor. And therefor, I wish also to bring this dimension to the attention of dear Cyndi wilkinsI mean it to repeat the name of Cyndi because both of you are outstanding thinkers and if you aren't connected or exchanging comments then it is tie to do so.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #27

#32
"The key is to learn to live with it without hurting excessively, without losing our ability to be happy again". Your wisdom my dear Clau Valerio shines brilliantly in your quote. You know you are ahead of your time. @Cyndi Wilkins and I generated a formula as outlined in comment #21 and I would love your feedback on this formula. I am sure this shall help Cyndi in preparing her forthcoming post and preparing her presentation.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #26

#30
Thank you for saving the background image

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #25

#21
Are you still jumping ion your chair Cyndi wilkins. I am dancing till now.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #24

#24
I keep saying that the friction of minds bring new ideas. I enjoyed immensely the formula and I am proud that this buzz inspired both of us to: 1- Modify the Blue Ocean Strategy. I shall publish a buzz on this soon. To derive a new formula. the one you are writing a buzz on dear Cyndi wilkins

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #23

Dear friend Lisa Vanderburg- I must say that the trigger for writing this buzz was the exploration of relationship (if any) between removing memory stains of bad experiences, memories, words etc. and removing stains on clothes. I was baffled with the fact that the drug used recently in making us block hurting memories has structure similarity with surfactants used in detergents. I responded twice to Edward Lewellen #9 and my previous comment. I t is like Shakespeare around and I should learn from Ed and you when it comes to neurological pathways.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #22

#8
Shame on me my friend Edward Lewellen #23 I decided to read your comment again and only then I realized your wrote two comments. I agree with you on The article shows they understand what happens when we recall a memory and how it has plasticity so that it can be influenced and changed". I say here that the use of drug should be the last option and not the first one. Neuroscience is gaining momentum and maybe some researches view it as a competent to their knowledge and expertise. Maybe this is part of the reason they pass hypnosis and related topics. I tagged you ED for I know this topic is close to your heart.

Lisa Vanderburg

منذ 4 سنوات #21

#24
...and you sweet Cyndi wilkins!

Cyndi wilkins

منذ 4 سنوات #20

#22
As a matter of fact, I think applying this formula to a buzz will be the perfect way for me to prepare for an up and coming podcast in June...Thanks for the inspiration;-)

Lisa Vanderburg

منذ 4 سنوات #19

Late to the table, I started reading the comments, but have to stop and say this before I get side-swiped Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee. The link under Propranolol reveals the more 'routine' view of memory retention; as if its a loop. All very well and good, especially for PTSD. That said, there's a whole world of hurt out there that carry neuro-signal pathways that are not necessarily memories per se; this occurs in hurt related to age-inappropriation. Those that are simply too young to understand the whats & whys - their brains are re-wired in a more chaotic fashion that doesn't point to singular incidents. I would be curious to here your view and the views of Edward Lewellen. My wee brain doth killed itself...so much thought you have provoked! Alas, it's also time to feed the beast, so I won't be back till tomorrow!!

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #18

#21
I am your tango partner. Are you writing a buzz on this formula?

Cyndi wilkins

منذ 4 سنوات #17

#20
Bravo!! Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee...I am jumping for joy out of my chair with your comment! So here is our new formula we have created...."How do we REMOVE or REDUCE the stains of trauma from the fabric of our minds?" Answer: By INCREASING our AWARENESS to CREATE a TRANSFORMATION in consciousness! I'm dancing now;-)

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #16

#19
I applaud your comment dear Cyndi wilkins. I used the word remove because of the detergent metaphor that I used. Detergents remove the stains and so, I used removal. You remind me of the Blue Ocean Strategy (remove, reduce, create and increase). I suggest that we add to these four block the transform activity. You are right and I think this strategy needs amendment. So, we have five options to deal with bad memories. I have just googled for removal of bad memories and it is a widely used term. The other options we have is to reduce the pain, to transform it to something else, to increase it (maybe this is wrong in this case} and find a creative transformation as you highlighted in your thoughtful comment. I am strongly in favor of your comment.

Cyndi wilkins

منذ 4 سنوات #15

I am honored to have served as a motivator for such an exquisite buzz Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee. I think the confusion here for some is in the term 'removal' ...I'm not certain the intention here is removal of the memory, but rather transforming our perception of it...The experience remains...but our feelings about it change as we consciously shift our perception of it...In doing so we create a new circuit or 'thought loop' about it...The choice is always yours. A negative 'thought loop' about an unpleasant experience will just keep reinforcing itself the longer we recycle the same behavior...in becomes a 'bad habit'...eventually creating physiological disease. If we can interrupt the signal before it settles into the fabric of our minds, we have a much better chance of removing the stain. That is why teaching our children the very basic life skill of how to cope with stress is so important to their future health and the health of an entire species...Lest they the continue the 'loop' of spending a life time collecting dirty laundry;-)

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #14

#17
Even if you visit a dentist?!

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #13

#15
Kim Wheeler

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #12

#12
I share your experience my friend David Navarro L\u00f3pez. My father passed away fifteen years ago and my mother is still suffering. The cure is in what you wrote at the end "Then I knew spring was coming" And she smiles about the memory of my father enjoying the moment. Some memories can be painful and delightful at the same time. The question is, what do we choose to get from them". Memories have two ends: one loving and one depressing. It is balancing these two that may keep us going.. The denial shall not work and only remembering the sweet times We may feel worse because we start to feel the good times are gone. I tell myself if I lose a longtime friend that it is better to mix the good memories with the bad ones. For if I remember the good ones only I might be carried away and feel the the loss stronger than before. If we only think of the bad memories we might bear grudge. It is reaching a balance between the two that is helpful.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #11

#11
Very true. Projection complexity is a poorly-researched topic Joyce \ud83d\udc1d Bowen Brand Ambassador @ beBee

David Navarro López

منذ 4 سنوات #10

Another challenging buzz, my dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee Bad memories can be very persistent, in a way that is not like a stain anymore, but like a scar. Every time you pass your hand over it, you can feel it, and the pain comes back to your mind. I had to deal with a similar situation when my father passed away. It was very painful for all, but unforgettable for my mother. Nothing you could say or do would change the fact, nor make her feel better. So instead of trying to wash away her memories, they had to be reconducted from another point of view. My first question to her was: would my father be in agreement, at the sight of you just sitting and crying for the loss? So, from now on, you must have him more present than ever and ask yourself what would he say or do. You have to look at it as it is. You are still married to the most wonderful man, but he is not here now, so you have to lead your life as if he was here by you. Some scars or stains cannot be washed away. With some, you can only change how you feel about it, and go on. Is not a piece of cake. It took almost 4 years, which is understandable after 52 years of marriage. But she has got it now. When spring comes, and the swallows start to chirp and pose in the window´s kitchen, my mother uses to say "Your father used to sit in front of the windows in that very chair you are now, watching the birds for hours. Then I knew spring was coming" And she smiles about the memory of my father enjoying the moment. Some memories can be painful and delightful at the same time. The question is, what do we choose to get from them.
Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee Projection is one of the more difficult psychological concepts to grasp. It is imperative to do so. Once I got the gist of detecting others' projection on to me, I did a happy dance. My heart skipped a beat when I realized projection is far more complex than I knew.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #8

#9
Thank you my friend Edward Lewellen for sharing your knowledge. There are two points to make. The first is that the more we may do without drugs, the better we are. There are cases that using drugs is unavoidable. I wish we could do without all the time. This brings me to my second point, which is the focus of this buzz. If we are researching for new drugs we may do so creatively with learning from the main concept. In this case, removing clothing stains and memory stains. The commercial drug would have cost much less to find if the research efforts were directed by this analogy. As for the rest of your comment, I say your approach is safer and more natural. Only if this approach fails then we may consider the use of drugs.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #7

#6
You present your wealthy experience Joyce \ud83d\udc1d Bowen Brand Ambassador @ beBee and it is not one experience that is repeated over years. It is diversified and we should listen carefully to your suggestion. Self=projection sounds a very interesting idea. I concur. The question then becomes how to realize this projection? I think my buzz addresses the second question. If people can't help themselves would others be able to help? Or, if they lack to project themselves differently would any advice from others be helpful? With the lack of capacity to do so I doubt it. Your comments urges me to think deeper.
"The idea that popped up in my mind is if we are able to remove the stains of dirt in our clothes, can we then do the same to remove the stains of bad memories, bad feelings, bad experiences and bad words in similar ways that we remove tangible dirt?" I believe we can. But we must not rely on anything proposing itself as help. There is such a thing called "projection" in psychology. I used to "project" my levels of morals, ethics, compassion, and empathy on to those I thought had those things. I now hoard them to myself and revel in them. There is a woman I converse with often here. She experienced a horrific childhood--as did I. When she asked for help starting at the age of 14, her descriptions of that "help" were just as horrific as what she suffered. Do I believe her? My trials' details were different but just as horrific. When I asked for "help," I experienced much of the same; therefore, I know she is accurate. For adults presenting themselves as advocates for children or "help" to be callous like sharks circling blood in the water is, unfortunately, too much like common human nature. I urge her to be strong and believe in herself--we discuss ways in which she may become stronger. I found my way, and it is my pleasure to help someone else do the same.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #5

#4
Thank you dear Debasish Majumder. Some researches have shown that there are many mini hearts in our bodies, Even the location and number of these hearts are still controversial. This topic is quite complex. I researched it thoroughly. One of the references that is outstanding was published recently "Erasing bad memories - American Psychological Association". It summarizes the new findings and is worthy of your reading time: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/02/bad-memories

Debasish Majumder

منذ 4 سنوات #4

if we wish to catch hold of something, our hands are purely directed by brains, gives us the stimulation and strength. so, beg to differ, that heart and mind are of two different source. both are lying in brain and the contradictions in brain may give different signals and here, time and space plays the key role. the internal is largely influenced by external world, but i guess, it is internal which plays the determining role. if thought is a matter and fluid in nature then, in due time the thought which may contain vile substances can overpower by an apparently good ingredients, provided being endorsed by the available design of external world which may instantly gain due weight age. however, wonderful buzz sir Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! Great insight indeed! enjoyed read and shared. thank you for the buzz sir.

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #3

#2
Thank you Pascal Derrien for the same reason.

Pascal Derrien

منذ 4 سنوات #2

I don't think removing is helping because I think you just cant this is just hiding from the truth, it's better to accept and integrate in my opinion. Well that's what I do :-)

Ali Anani

منذ 4 سنوات #1

Cyndi wilkins- you are mentioned in this buzz Edward Lewellen will surely enrich the discussions

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