The Paradox of Love

The Paradox of Love

The title is a simple one for a complex issue. The paradox of love is a form of nested paradoxes. A comment by CityVPΒ Manjit on my previous buzz. In his comment he wrote β€œExtreme love is great but only a few people are capable of extreme love for the rest of us we mostly live in the fear of love. You have just featured the link to Lisa Vanderburg and Lisa is a good example of someone who epitomizes extreme love. Extreme love is the testing limit whether it is love or an illusion of love”. When we go to the extreme we get away from the balancing point and this could lead to consequences.

The Journey Map of Love

Love has a journey. I try to sketch out this journey in the following illustration and how love progresses with time.

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The longer we own something, the dearer it becomes and the more intense the feelings we develop we own it. It is like somebody rents a house from you and he stay in that house for long years he shall then feel the ownership of the house. This is a bifurcation point. When we love somebody to the extreme extent that we feel ownership of the beloved. We tend to protect and/or control the beloved one. The latter will soon realize he lover is trying to control/protect her/him and shall resist this tendency. This situation develops into two paradoxes: the paradox of controlling and the paradox of protecting. The lever to get more control he/she should lessen his/her control. Same is the situation with protection. If the lover fails to accept these paradoxes he/she shall tend to become more controlling and protecting. This leads to resentment from the beloved one and starts distancing herself/himself from the lover. The lover feels he/she is losing his/her beloved one. Very often this result into intense feeling of a great loss and may turn into revenge. What started as love ends in revenge leading to killing the beloved one.

When we go to the extreme we produce paradoxes that lead us to live chaotic lives. When we live in the β€œextreme love” we allow excessiveness control and protect our lives. We then suffer from the paradox of living chaotic and paradoxical lives. Because we reach a chaotic state of love we produce more of the chaotic emotions such as extreme jealousy. Our possessiveness annoys the beloved ones and we create more of chaos and we get used to living in chaos.

This isn’t different from a person seeking freedom and starts his private business only to become a slave to the business that was supposed to give him the freedom. Excess by going to the extreme shall produce the ill-effects that we tried to escape from.

Love turns into hatred as a recent story of a university student who threatened to publish his beloved one’s photos if he didn’t get money from her to compensate him for his lost love.

Antifragility is getting stronger after a chaotic experience. Likewise; I coined the term β€œantilove”, which is the opposite of love. It is love that make us weaker and more fragile post to the end of love.
Ali Anani

I see paradoxes resulting from extreme love as the dragons of love that we need to bypass to be stronger and make our love stronger. I am using the term dragon from the inspiration of the comments shared on my previous buzz by Harvey Lloyd. Harvey said in one of his comments β€œI would say in this context we curl up in response. Yes, dragons beget dragons”. True, as dragons of excessive control and protection turn into dragons of revenge, hatred, excessive jealousy and there after ill-effects.

Do you believe in excessive, or extreme love?


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Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#161
OK, and I love you Clau Valerio. I hope this love would inspire you

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#159
Clau Valerio- thank you dear friend for sharing the buzz and writing a comprehensive comment. You explained obsessive love disorder very well and I agree completely with your comment. Thank you also for reminding me of one of my buzzes that is close to my heart.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#157
Surely this helps Roberto De la Cruz Utria

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#154
Correct, as when we find self-order in chaos we have put ourselves in a higher level. A level enriched by previous learning. Yes, it is an order of higher level than the order we were in before.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #140

#153
Expanding on that concept i would suggest that growth and the impending chaos has a structure of engagement. This is somewhat discussed under the guise of change management. I would further submit the order within chaos is the structure of engagement not necessarily the order we were within before we started.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#152
You are talking about order that is always embedded in chaos. Yes, with constructive love we may find the order in the chaos of growth. I agree with your comment and welcome its depth. In fact, it is interesting that you mention growth and chaos. When growth becomes exponential because of feedback it is bound to take us into chaos. This is the tax on growth. However; we know there is always order in chaos as there is chaos in order. It is on the edge of chaos (before getting immersed in it) that we self-organize into better humans. That is the real challenge.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #138

#150
#151 I remember many years ago when i first heard of the chaos theory and the various aspects of its nature. I spent many of those years avoiding chaos as it was thought to be a negative existence. I have found though that chaos is the result of moving outside of order because of need or growth. Chaos should always have a stated purpose. We have natural chaos that is a function of time that we have no control over. But the chaos of growth and understanding is one of purpose. Today though we seem to see a lot of chaos that is without purpose other than to destroy certain ideals. You cant kill an ideal without killing the person. You can only stir the chaos around the ideal and bring it to null. This is self destructive as when everything becomes null and the social level folks no longer seek the healthy chaos of growth. Its not worth the risk of becoming null. The basis of love within the context of social professional, is the bridge it builds to carry us through the chaos of growth. The foundation of love gets fractured when chaos has no purpose but to destroy. For those who can isolate themselves in small business and create this atmosphere of growth, the bridge of understanding chaos, takes on new meaning. Chaos should always reflect the purpose that caused us to move from order into this challenging position.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#150
You are most welcome to the discussions dear Milos Djukic. Do I agree with you? Unfortunately yes because when we differ our conversation extends respectfully and I learn from you. After chaos two possibilities occur either the system creatively organizes to a new structure that is antifragile, or the system blows out and disintegrates. Yes, with passionate love we may appear stronger. Your comment brings many stories back in my mind. One story is that of Casablanca movie. Towards the end when the hero faces the conflict of love between his love to the girl he lost and then reunited with and his love for his country. He opted for the bigger issue- his country. Love brings faith and doctrine to our life and that is a kind of self-organizing. But it is also the same love that made many people commit suicide after losing their beloved ones. Or, killing the girls they loved because they, for one reason or another, they opted to part company and get married to other men under oppression. This is chaos and love that ends this way is chaotic beyond chaos.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

2 years ago #136

Be BRAVE, provide something NEW and magnificent for the others, then the whole WORLD is yours. Love is the essence of time. The currently valid definition of chaos, makes it difficult to practice this endangered and forgotten human trait. Chaos is often defined as a mess, confusion and a complete lack of order? It seems that the ancient Greeks definition of the word chaos is now somewhat misinterpreted. In the Hesiod's β€œTheogony”, chaos is defined as the primary prerequisite before anything else; creative force of the formation and further development. Chaos in our society is certainly not useful or productive phenomenon, but it does not apply to our human existence. Chaos investigates the transition between order and disorder, which can often be unexpected and surprising. However, despite primordial fear, the chaos is simultaneously a source of sublimity and the most unusual creativity. Chaos plays a crucial role in initiation and expression of our creativity. When there is no fear, chaos becomes a generator of new ideas and an integral part of some fruitful truth-seeking oriented journeys. Love is the most beautiful one. All text Copyright Β© 2014, 2015, 2016 by Milos Djukic - All Rights Reserved

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Clau Valerio- I need more of the women voices here. Thank you

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#147
Dear Proma \ud83d\udc1d Nautiyal- your comment is so well-thought and summarizes beautifully what I intended to say in this buzz. Your comment speaks to my heart and mind. Yes, when we go to the extreme we develop the feelings of ownership as if we own the beloved one. Ownership means holding to the person, restricting his/her movement and applying our rules on the beloved ones without noticing that we over do it. Yes, we tend to make them an extension of ourselves and this is the beginning of "love distortion".

Proma 🐝 Nautiyal

Proma 🐝 Nautiyal

2 years ago #133

I do agree, Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee, with the idea that love does turn into something bitter and not so comforting when it does enter the extreme stage. As humans we tend to hold on with a firm grip onto whatever we have in our hands. This applies to love and relationships, as well. We forget that the other person is human as well and needs space and has a mind of their own. So it definitely makes sense when they start resisting the extreme control that their loved ones hold over them. It all makes sense and the Paradox does exist. It's onto us to respect people's boundaries however close they might be to us. After all, they are a different person altogether, and not an extension of our own self. Thank you for the thought provoking buzz Sir!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#142
I shall not dwell at length discussing meaning of words. Extreme love is a term that you used first and upon checking Google I found it is popular. Now, one might say it is a relative term. OK, but still we we see its effects. When two lovers isolate themselves and restrict their world to being together they curl up in a small world. We become prisoners for love that is supposed to free us and expand our world and not diminish it. The same is extensible to your other examples of extreme engagement. In brevity, going to the extreme is a form of exaggeration that I find restrictive in the long run.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#141
You reminded me of the thought-provoking book of our friend Edward Lewellen "The 90- second mind manager". I wrote the forward for this book and it still occupies my mind. In his book ED discusses exactly your challenge "Having lived for a certain individual it is meaning that is the vacuum. Now the challenge is, is there anyway of finding greater meaning that will fill that massive hole where the vortex of love spun". Yes, I agree with your comment and post great sadness weneed to remember the virtues if good people to relieve us.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#139
Dear Lisa Vanderburg- you said that "I am not whole, I am halved by my own being". Just remember that we may only enjoy the juice of lemon and orange if they are halved. If we try to squeeze a whole lemon then we get no juice. Your juice of humanity and care is as sweet as you are.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #129

#85
The word "extreme" is loaded but we should question why it should trigger our associations with the extremists, with addiction or insanity when all it is in the context of love here is love that operates in a rare atmosphere. No love is not a sport, but we are OK with terms like "Extreme Sports", and the chief linkage between Extreme Sports and Extreme Love is the very subject that knits and links all the conversations happening here, which is paradox. Whatever we think of extreme sports, when we read attempts to explain it, we will trigger many reactions that do not bring us to the heart of why human beings are capable of reaching the maximum involvement. In this explanation of http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2014/12/04/personality-traits-extreme-adventurers/#.W3tYXbgpCM8 notice how many different explanations there can be to "explain" why Extreme Sports exist - yet in this article you will see the very same thing you see in these threads - paradox, paradox, paradox. For me since I have never experienced extreme sports, it is beyond a paradox, it is an enigma. That is the ratified atmosphere that we do not get to experience. Sometimes those things that are too alien for us because they don't fit for neat explanations or reasoning, simply need to eradicate reason and substitute with appreciation. The enigma that is too mysterious may give way to the paradox may allow us to appreciate whatever it is to exist and operate in agape love. I am far removed from agape love because I am as mainstream and middle of the road as anyone can get. Anyone who has engaged in maximum levels of excellence have engaged in an extreme form of profession. Anyone who is celebrated as an explorer and those that live in the most extreme climates and call that their natural home has engaged in that which is an extreme. We are afraid of the word extreme where we have been hurt by the extreme - yet humanity has evolved because of extreme love.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #128

#87
That is the paradox, one cannot love a person that much without creating a massive vacuum when that person has gone. Only a large enough meaning can replace that size of vacuum. Having lived for a certain individual it is meaning that is the vacuum. Now the challenge is, is there anyway of finding greater meaning that will fill that massive hole where the vortex of love spun. Even if we are ourselves focused on the hurt and want so badly for someone we love to "live again" rather than enter the abyss in the vacuum, the aspect of extreme love is not at all the overdose of love, but an individual person could love a person that much. We forget that while your father was alive, he was the luckiest man alive to be loved by his other half in a way that most of us can't even imagine or envisage. For sure we want people to live again and not find emptiness where a great love was - but that is the paradox of love whether we like it or not. I would rather have your mother love your father in the way she did, than the other paradox - a paradox of empty relationships that never risked putting everything into that one thing. When we get sentimental we see a great love story, when we get attached we see the face of pain but a love like that is not a tragedy - the tragic love is never to have known the kind of love your mother and father knew. I won't take that away from them - but the vacuum is the paradox.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #127

#138
I am just me...completely undeserving of your admiration, my dear Tausif Mundrawala - it is simply what (I hope!) one does when we can feel another's pain. I felt yours...very deeply. You may be surprised to know of my own vunerabilities and weakness. In the last two weeks, I have shown my instability to Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee - all have been graciously dismissive to my angst and I love them all the more for it. I am not whole, I am halved by my own being, and in the last 4 weeks, my husband's recent acute phase - this is now lifting...just in the last 30 hours or so. It has been a journey through which I've had to examine my motives in my care while realizing that it's all on my shoulders: To call the doctor as an emergency leads down a certain path that takes my beloved out of my control because they too have a set-routine to follow. That could potentially lead to poor care which could end up being appaulling quality of life; the snow-ball effect. In all honesty, this is a wing and a prayer - so much of life is, no? Love when you can my friend and passion will find its level as water does!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#136
Amazing you are my friend? Soon a stone shall be worthy more than gold.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #125

#135
Hey - I'm up for stoning dear friend Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! Self-mocking is bang on!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#134
I believe we may detect your sincerity from your comments dear Lisa. You throw "accusations" at self to make others look smarter. You you add this to abandonment and innocence? May I call it self-sacrifice or self-mocking, but that is up to you.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #123

#132
Dang...I so wish self and selfless came with a better manual - thank you; always.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #122

#128
Nothing like a timely smack, my delightdful Tausif Mundrawala :) It is like venting anger towards your child for scaring the pants out of you! It has taught you a very good lesson: listening! Something I'n not particularly good at :) I LOVE your parents - they are (and was) the seed that bore fruit in you!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#131
You could expand this great line into a book dear Lisa Vanderburg. "Approaching love, we need to regain an amount of innocence and abandonment. If we cannot sustain love as it matures, it will lead to heart-break and even more dilemma!" Innocence and abandonment- how unselfish you are to think this way.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #120

#130
That's the perplexity in a nut-shell, dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! We are bound to many things in the time-span of our love - be it wife/husband, child/parent, adult to aged parent and all those in between. If we make a choice as a caveat to the object of our love, the 'object' (if not included) become a sort of prey. In all circumstances of love, inclusion of the 'prey-menatlity' will ineviably not end well for either party. Approaching love, we need to regain an amount of innocence and abandonment. If we cannot sustain love as it matures, it will lead to heart-break and even more dilemma!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#129
You are correct and profound dear Lisa Vanderburg. I assumed an initial linear relationship at the onset of love because many complex system (and love is one of them) start linear. What we could add to resolve this issue is that the linear growth is true for very short period of times. Love is blind and when we love we become blind to the shortcomings of love. Blindness doesn't help in linear movement; more corrugated ones. So, I truly lean to accepting your point of view.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #118

#120
Wonderfully understood, but for simplicity's sake; to love in the manner I know would require too much of a sane person. Please don't get me wrong! There are millions of carers / caregivers that commit to their task that are far more disciplined - and I suggest, caring - than me. For me, nothing is linear - it's not about my 'charge' nor my 'love'...it's more about being adept at what one does; I am woefully inadequate, certainly in my mind's eye. But we don't chose our carers; that's abig dilemma of its own making! If it's helpful in any way: - Those that we love do not assume what we assume. - We WILL make assumptions; most particularly it is a bent-view of our beloveds intent. That said, every catastrophe anyone encounters will lead to a different way of thinking! It's a matter of learning (and GUESSING) what your beloved wants v needs in the now.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #117

#119
You know, my genius freind Tausif Mundrawala; you have brought up a missing link to this puzzle: space! Repeating myself (quite probably!), we do need space! My father used to take me for one of his night-walks (with a big Cuban Havana). My 'job' was to know when to shut-up, know when to engage. It did teach me that service without self-recovery is a recipe for disaster!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #116

#118
Amen to that! :)

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #115

#117
Catching up...but Harvey Lloyd; a mere couple of generations back (say, 40/50 years) we would have as children, experianced the silent parent, traumatized and withdrawn from war. The re-bound of the years from then 'til now are exraordinary? I could be fooling myself :)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#122
Great and you bring a good point my friend Tausif Mundrawala. It is "I love the concept of "love" which illuminates a person in respect of other". To what degree of illumination and the dimensions of this illumination. Better understanding, readiness to sacrifice, enhancing respect. Your comment is a mind-stretcher.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#119
I am in agreement with your profound comment dear Tausif Mundrawala that I have nothing to add. In science we say there is no real bonding between two people or materials, it is always stronger through a third party. For some people the third party is relations with God, for others it is self-interest. Many marriages failed under stress or when the fortune of one party suffered. No more self-interest and divorce results. Loves requires the maturity as explained in your wise comment.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#117
Harvey Lloyd mentioned the corrugated line and in a way this is a sort of branching. Yes, different metaphors lead to different results, but may help in our visualization of love.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #111

#109
I believe we were referring to epigenetics. A subsystem of our DNA that seems to carry forward certain fundamental beliefs with survival. #108 Yea it is difficult to describe abstract things in any context but what happens when language is a barrier within metaphor? I find myself discussing concepts with the younger generations and it is as if i am the 12th century monk. I think we would all get schooled pretty hard if that monk came forward and suggested his definition of love.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #110

#104
Having read the post and comments would you say that love as a concept has boundaries rather than linear progressions? From some of the comments we see different styles of love as they apply to those in proximity out to those we dont know. Also we have the narrative bias of our epistemology through generations. I would also suggest that these boundaries are not just based in love but also moral values. A drug addict may need drugs but should we give them money? If we do we know what will most likely happen, yet if we dont we will retain a feeling of not loving the individual. The boundaries of love should direct us. But this is a source of the confusion i would sense also. Each of us places these boundaries differently. Recent social science has placed our ant-fragile children at the feet of overprotective parents. Children were not allowed to sort out their differences on the playground so they didn't learn solutions. But out of love we protected our children from the dragons they now face in adulthood. I would further suggest that love is something at the spouse/child level where you have to show it and experience it. ALthough metaphor may help us express it in a public forum, i don't believe we can truly express it accept through our actions, over time.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#115
Thank you my friend Edward Lewellen for joining the discussions. Over-heated love (or, love overdose or whatever term) is different when we assume symmetrical love from both parties. The trouble starts if it is one directional love and is asymmetrical. I put myself in this position- if I love a girl more and more and her love is still lagging behind mine. What shall happen in the future? I shall tend to protect her or control her. The rreaction of the girl shall be modest to start with, then she will feel bothered, troubled and shall start pulling away. The only time I don't think is possible with mothers who fall in love with her kids (you may name this love with what you want, but surely it is not passion because it is continuing) is the of mother to her kids. Not all mothers, but I have seen mothers who lost their lives attempting to rescue their kids. Apart from this, what shall stop the tendency for love to become chaotic and asymmetrical? In your splendid "90-seconds mind " you l reported the passing away of your daughter and how you dragged yourself ot of this terrible event.Your love to your daughter made you stronger and this is a very noble love- that makes us better.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#113
Yes, but we shall get there, Lisa

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #107

#110
whoa....fabulous thoughts! All I got is we have to find the commonalities instead of the differences. Other than that, my brain fell out.... :)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#109
I must credit you dear Lisa Vanderburg for you research while commenting. This means real engagement in the discussions and sharing other points of view.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#109
WOW! Now, I think you you would believe me when I said before "the more we think we understand, the reality is that less we understand". The rabbit hole of understanding is confusing.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#108
As much as I enjoy these discussion, to the same degree I am stressed by them. I am taking notes of key points in the discussions and they are building up. I got in a state of confusion. This is the paradox- the more we understand, the less we understand. Not only that dear Lisa, but also arranging my new thoughts resulting from these discussions. Two strange ideas have already been "stored" in my mind. One idea is how generations thinking map changed with social pressures.The inspiration generated from Harvey's comment. A second point is having new insights on human interfaces. All liquids in our bodies have interfaces. How our bodies master the "management" of these interfaces is amazing. Can we find better ways of understanding human inter phases? This is still a very crude idea, but I am trying to find a breakthrough thinking. Only if I could. So, Lisa it isn't your conundrum alone; it is also mine.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #103

Look what I found! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Fascinating...maybe distracting? Dunno, but remeber Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee on one of your previous buzz' we talked of how our DNA is changing - would be virtually unrecognisable from the first humans? Might have been just me talking :)

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #102

#101
Just had to laugh....''[of love] This like describing an iPhone to a 12th century monk.'' So absorbed in what you were saying, I had to go back for this! That same monk would see you exorcised in the most excrutiating ways :) But like #104 Ali, that generational angle is easier to explain - no babble there! That said, we don't 'nned' more children, our expectations are skewed by social media....we have too much choice and yet so little offering. It is a conundrum.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#106
A subtle point and I need to explore it further

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #100

#104
it would be hard for me to believe that print, TV and now social media has not impacted our view of relationships Keeping in mind that just a few centuries ago love/relationships were the key to survival Today though we don’t need each other in the same way. So love has been redefined since those earlier times

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#102
Thank you dear Lisa Vanderburg for sharing the link. It is a great and insightful post. I need to re-read it, but two points stand out for me and I wish to share them. 1- "broken heart syndrome”- This ties with the second point: 2- Physical Pain Dies, Lost Love Doesn’t Yes, and the bigger the lost love is, the greater pain is. Love that is supposed to generate more love ending in unforgettable pain.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#101
This is a very interesting comment Harvey Lloyd. In this buzz I discussed the love journey map of a lover. Now, I think it is worthy to consider the same over generations. How love changed skin and how the exterior factor affected the meaning of love. I am reading "We seem to want to define perfect love as opposed to experiencing intrinsically love that meets the extrinsic world. I think complication comes when we allow the exterior to mold the interior of our hearts". Has love yielded to external factors over the generations?

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #97

#101
Great is your understanding Harvey Lloyd, and refeshing in new directions! 'Pointedly can we let go of some of the narritive of fear that maybe a parents passed on to us, that no longer apply?' Yes, I think we can...once we've finished beating everybody over the head with it! I like to think if I have issues, they are mine and not to be used as weapons.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #96

#97
Your response to your beloved's brother's pain is understandably normal...it pains me to read of your pain! https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/why-love-literally-hurts This is fascinating!

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #95

This post is really bringing forward some elements of love from many perspectives. One common thread within the comments is that we all experience love in our own way and then try and express it to others. This like describing an iPhone to a 12th century monk. One thought did occur. I have studied generational poverty and its role within our business. I would think that, maybe, we could look at love from a generational perspective. Parents experience fears and protect children from their experience with their parents. 1600 era love was different then 21st century. Mainly in explanation. This would allow us to understand the narritive of our parents and how they displayed love to us. My grandparents displayed love from a depression era bubble. Save everything, live a life for the rainy day and love your neighbor, because when it does rain you will need their help. My parents lived a more modern life so love was contained more within a successful paradigm, be all you can be. Love has many faces and our environment may shape how we express it. My thought this morning is how do we allow our environment to shape our expression of love. Pointedly can we let go of some of the narritive of fear that maybe a parents passed on to us, that no longer apply? We seem to want to define perfect love as opposed to experienceing intrinsically love that meets the extrinsic world. I think complication comes when we allow the exterior to mold the interior of our hearts. The reality of love is far different than what is portrayed in media or how we experience another couples love. Love is the never ending story that can never be defined except within your own shadow.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Lisa Vanderburg- isn't selfishness a result of excessive self-loving? This is a simple example of the opposite effect of excessive self-love to fail to give consideration for others? I recall an incident that still appalls me till today. IA went on a picnic with few friend and we agreed to share food. One guy loved one dish so much. he spitted on the food deliberately so that no one would share it with him. Unbelievable, but it is true. No wonder we ignored this guy afterwards. Who wants to have a friend like him?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#98
In human relations balancing is the name. Balancing through negotiation, persuasion, storytelling and by listening to the other side point of view. In business we may afford to go to the extreme hoping for creative solutions to emerge. In human relations this could be very costly and the results could be damaging to all parties. Yes, I agree with you dear Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #92

#95
It's all about balance; easy in hindsight to say! The examples you give are missing one universal factor - the other half. It's the parents (both) consensus to bring up their children within an agreed platform that often causes so much heartache, much less trauma. Personally, if I'm here: Low-----i---------sane------------High and my husband's: L-------------sane---------p--H then we can expect differing concepts to child-rearing. As I say, we got lucky with our kids. If I had to guess how, it would be that we 'visited the negotiation table' frequently. But, we had moments, like just before the birth of our first-born. 'We are in charge' was the mantra that crumbled fast within the first few months :) I guess it's as fluid a line as love, but I'm hugely grateful for the multiple time-out sessions we had to reconnoiter the battle-field!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#94
You remind me of my late brother Azzam who passed away because of brain tumor at the age of 47. He was my closest brother. At one point observing the suffering he had from tumor and the pain he had to endure I wished him to die sometimes! This is strange that I wished the death of my closest brother and friend. Sometimes, I felt the pain from him departing from life was less than pain I suffered watching him suffering!!!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#93
In line of my previous comment to you dear Lisa Vanderburg that excess may generate the opposite effect applies to you. For thinking of yourself as klutz you are far from being one. If you were how could you then engage readers with such rich conversations?!!!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#92
That is a very interesting question dear Lisa Vanderburg. A colleague of mine who has a sharp mind and a doctorate degree in electrical engineering rejected the idea of getting married. His terrible childhood clouded his mind. He always remembered how harsh and violent his father was. He was scared to get married for fear he would bring up his kids with duress. When his friends finally convinced him to get married he his kids being so soft and tender with them. He overreacted to violence by taking the opposite direction. As good he and his wife are their kids became very irresponsible. The poor guy suffered again from a different issue. On the other hand I have a friend who had a religious father. He (the father) oppressed his ton to pray and didn't allow his son to decide his own path. The kid hated praying and once he left home abroad to study he did everything that isn't allowed for moslems to do. The love of the father for God turned into disobedience to God by the son. The lessons send a message- oppression generates the opposite effect.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #88

#87
Such an amazing truth that comes through your mother's love, dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee: The wounds of those left behind in the wake of love remain. The depth of the wounds are the depth of the love under duress, such as prolonged suffering. My understanding of my husband's disease is that his last breath will come with such blessed relief; by that time (a long ways off), I will be happy for him that his suffering has ended.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #87

#84
haha...hey, I'm a klutz CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit - that's the great levity of it all :)

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #86

#83
You've got me thinking.............. I wonder if Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee had used the expression 'love under extreme duress' rather than 'extreme love' how our conversation would alter...... Very nice Franci\ud83d\udc1dEugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#85
Deborah Levine- I appreciate your explanation. We tend to tackle issues such as love from different angles. That love may turn into controlling and feeling of possession is agreed upon by many researchers. It shall be interesting to understand why so many long-standing marriages, for example, are ending in divorce. From my own observation of friends and acquaintances jealousy and feelings of imprisonment were main causes.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#83
That is the core point of the buzz dear Franci\ud83d\udc1dEugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador. I have seen over-possession repeatedly destroying relations such as love. Jealousy of the wife or husband and this also leads to doubting any "movement" of the other. A long standing marriage ended in separation recently. The husband complained to me that he felt he was spending his life in jail called home. His life became so jealous that when a married couple visited him she doubted that her husband had her eyes focused on the life. Life went like that till it ended in divorce. An overdose of love is dangerous. It is as simple as that.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#80
This is why I believe is the case. If you read my response to CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit comment in which I shared a personal issue with love that I agree with your comment.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#78
'Possessiveness and jealousy are a lack of strength.' I agree with this quote. Thank you dear Lisa Vanderburg for searching before commenting. This is the way to go.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#75
Even in divine love we may have undesirable acts. For example, during Prophet Mohammed few Moslems tended to spend almost all of the time worship in mosques. They were criticized by the prophet for faith is to couple faith with useful actions. Faith alone isn't enough. The most interesting point for me in your comment CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit as an example "Very few of us can reach the depths that Lisa has accepted and in that she has broken through several layers of the human condition, without which she could not love her husband the way she does today". Yes, love is endure long-lasting pain. I recall my father and his last years which he spent in sheer pain. My mother suffered like nobody can imagine. Even after his passing away my mother wouldn't move out of the house because in it she could "breathe the smell of my dad". But again, she suffered as the persistent pain led to health problems to my mothers. She is still living and since my father passed away I have never felt she is living on the memories. Love can be hurting and may also sideline life. An overdose of love leads to persistent pains.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #80

#80
Lisa Vanderburg Lisa there is Arnold Schwarzenegger and there is Pee-Wee Herman. Emotional weight is no different except when it comes to "extreme love" there are many more Pee-Wee Herman's in our world than with the strength of Arnold. Whatever people cannot lift they will drop. The pull away at the emotional and spiritual level is no different to the pull away at the physical level. The love we normally address is an impression of love, but the actuality of love is what I give you credit for. Your love is not an impression of love, it is the actuality and you did not get any choice to pick up life's heaviness but you did and that is not what the majority of people can do. And now for something lighter - beyond even an Impression of Love : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wNJhdUEH2g

Franci 🐝Eugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador

I believe one can love another so deeply that they become obsessed with that person. They can become so controlling and possessive they put the relationship in jeopardy. If feelings are not mutual there can definitely be ill-effects. Yes, I feel there can be excessive love but, IMO, extreme love is no longer love but an uncontrollable desire to possess or be overprotective of another. This is an excellent discussion Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee, and all of the commenters, as well.

Cyndi wilkins

Cyndi wilkins

2 years ago #78

#77
Ooof! I think you just outed me Joanne Gardocki;-) 38 Special was a favorite of mine in high school!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #77

#76
Same to you, lovely Joanne Gardocki...I am grateful for your generosity of spirit! I'm no saint - so far from it I'm surprised not to be arrested by heaven's hosts for all the encouragement I get from everybody :) In truth, it's just one decision to love...the rest is downright mayhem!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #76

#75
Such a depth of understanding CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit that I hardly know where to start! Thank you seems woefully inadequate given the understanding you have considered. There is one thing that I don't 'get' but understand at some level; how over the years, so many family members pull away. I think they cannot bear it and if we see them, it'll be 'oh, he seems to be doing fine!' It's a cop-out. I can't hold a grudge for that (for Pete's sake), but it's a little 'plague mentality'. This; '[of physical pain in comparison]....but that pain is a nonsense compared to the birthing pain involved in the paradox of love - that stripping away the heaviness and brutality of a conditioned existence and the hate, fear and evil that may also be a part of that condition, we may not have realized ourselves just how closer we have got personally to agape love.'' What I find at present is the almost unbearable amount of dilemma v insufficient time or room for error. This will increase and decrease as crisis also goes in waves. Just hoping now we see the light at his acute crisis of the last month. Too much me does not help, but I am most grateful for awareness of the brutality of it all. Humbled Manjit!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #75

#73
further proof on how very difficult it is to describe love....lol, CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #74

#72
Reminds me of that word we used when I was young; possessiveness. Checking the google box, this was the 1st to come up: 'It takes someone being very comfortable with themselves to be able to love others. You have to love yourself before you are even capable of loving someone else. When you are possessive, it means that you are afraid. They are your external illusion to "happiness".Possessiveness and jealousy are a lack of strength.' A Quora quote, but covers it well!

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #73

Between the divine condition which is what we normally associate with love and the human condition which is the soil in which love actually grows we find the paradox of love, that love which becomes tethered and free from its conditioning. What Lisa Vanderburg mentions in her comments is the soil that of course conditions and lays down the identity of love as that which we have personally experienced. In that identity is shaped memories of extreme conditions, but extreme conditions is not a paradox, it is brutal and blunt force accumulation of memories and experiences. Extreme love is breaking free of condition not a euphemism for any extreme condition itself. This is the actual paradox of what is probably beyond the reach of us as a population of people who treat the pain of love no different to the stubbing of our big toe, we jump around in what we perceive as unbearable pain, hopping as the momentary stubbing of our toe eases its physical pain - but that pain is a nonsense compared to the birthing pain involved in the paradox of love - that stripping away the heaviness and brutality of a conditioned existence and the hate, fear and evil that may also be a part of that condition, we may not have realized ourselves just how closer we have got personally to agape love. Very few of us can reach the depths that Lisa has accepted and in that she has broken through several layers of the human condition, without which she could not love her husband the way she does today. In the Eastern tradition we may talk Nirvana but we also recognize Kaljug in the Western tradition there is this idea of being "born again" - but what is a rebirth if it is not extreme love - the paradox is in this birthing. Recognizing the light in the darkness is the light we let in and that light itself is the unbearable. The comfort of darkness is the regression from transformation where pain threshold is a stubbed toe, so extreme love is the road less known.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #72

Between the divine condition which is what we normally associate with love and the human condition which is the soil in which love actually grows we find the paradox of love, that love which becomes tethered and free from its conditioning. What Lisa Vanderburg mentions in her comments is the soil that of course conditions and lays down the identity of love as that which we have personally experienced. In that identity is shaped memories of extreme conditions, but extreme conditions is not a paradox, it is brutal and blunt force accumulation of memories and experiences. Extreme love is breaking free of condition not the condition itself. This is the actual paradox of what is probably beyond the reach of us as a population of people who treat the pain of love no different to the stubbing of our big toe, we jump around in what we perceive as unbearable pain, hopping as the momentary stubbing of our toe eases its physical pain - but that pain is a nonsense compared to the birthing pain involved in the paradox of love - that stripping away the heaviness and brutality of a conditioned existence and the hate, fear and evil that may also be a part of that condition, we may not have realized ourselves just how closer we have got personally to agape love. People may wax philosophically about divine conditions while they cannot even handle the painful reality of a stubbed toe, yet very few of us can reach the depths that Lisa has accepted and in that she has broken through several layers of the human condition, without which she could not love her husband the way she does today. In the Eastern tradition we may talk Nirvana but we also recognize Kaljug in the Western tradition there is this idea of being "born again" - but what is a rebirth if it is not extreme love - the paradox is in this birthing. Recognize the light in the darkness is the light we let in - and light itself can be unbearable.

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #71

#51
Looks like I posted my response in "A Random Walk of Thoughts" though I was responding to Paradox of Love. Maybe the error was due to my wife not being pleased with me this morning because she was expecting me to get ready to leave for a religious puja type event in Hamilton and I was not going to go anywhere until I had composed a response to "Paradox of Love" and posted it this morning. Ha Ha ! In my eagerness I ended up sending it to an earlier posting. I will copy and delete from that other buzz and forthwith provide my response here, which will be moments away :-)

Cyndi wilkins

Cyndi wilkins

2 years ago #70

#53
That is exactly the tune my mind was playing while I was responding with my comment Joanne Gardocki!...I must have been dialed into your thoughts passing by;-) Nobody likes a cling on for a lover! That will surely snuff that flame right out!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #69

#69
What a shuddering thought, Harvey Lloyd; 'Are we trading religion for government intervention?' Religion (at least in my mind) = fear and rules. Faith = consent and love and reason. That so basic...sorry! :)

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #68

#67
Love 1: Commanding it?: 0 Deborah Levine has just done this BRILLIANT play, although I know that was no her intent. She was ruminating as she spoke. At least, that's what I think! That's often where we get such true gems from!! #68 If I've puzzled you...haha....that's what you get from hangin' with wimmin...lol! :)

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #67

#58
I agree on the mystery segment of you comment. It is a mystery and it is not for everyone but is worthy of exploration. The way you refered to Religion and its rules concerning various human social interactions was intriguing. It conjured up some questions for me. Is religion attempting to show us boundaries of our mental capacity? Things inside covenant agreement and those on the outside in excess can break a human to its gelatinous core. I thought of the public service commercials about hygiene and public safety that now espouse the religious teachings of boundaries and their importance. Are we trading religion for government intervention? Thanks for the thoughts and your willingness to share them.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#66
Now I am puzzled with these thoughts- in a good way!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#62
+This is exactly the same paragraphs I selected from Deborah Levine for sharing same thoughts. This is what puzzled me reading Deborah's comment. She feels at loss. The paradox is that her comments tells she isn't at loss. May be too much clarity generates the opposite effect!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #64

#61
Well, when I was a kid I spend many long periods thinking I didn't exist - a figment of another's imaginings. Somehow, I don't think evidence of my 'other-worldliness' would come as a surprise to you or Ali :) But it was such an enlightening comment Harvey Lloyd, that I believe you're right in asking not only what we worship but, 'What ransom have we paid at the alter of humanity to satisfy this belief?' Excellent.....

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#58
Deborah Levine- even though you wrote "but find myself at a loss on this article" I find your comment to the opposite. It explains the tendency of love to go chaotic and I find your comment of great understanding and relevance to the buzz. So, I am confused of the source of your feeling at loss. I appreciate your comment greatly and I concur with it.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#59
The fact that love is chaotic sometimes is demonstrated by hundreds of articles that I read before writing this buzz Jerry Fletcher in which she wrote "Having said that, in chaotic times such as those we are presently in, the fabric of society begins to fray, the extremes rise to the surface, the unfortunate choices increase exponentially, and the search for help navigating becomes more desperate". Yes, lovers make choices, but where these choices lead them to is the question. The issue I tried to cover in this buzz has been very well-explained in Joanne Gardocki comment. We love work, women, doing this and that, traveling etc. No matter what- when we exceed a limit love turns against us. I gave example in my previous comments. If I am fond of reading and I love it to the extent I don't socialize then I shall be a social failure. I appreciate your comment for it allowed me to explain the buzz better.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #61

#58
oops...I call attention to this beautifully crafted addition Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee's!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #60

#58
Okay...you said you had nothing to say. lovely Deborah Levine?? :) Where to start? '...in chaotic times such as those we are presently in, the fabric of society begins to fray, the extremes rise to the surface, the unfortunate choices increase exponentially, and the search for help navigating becomes more desperate.' That is my worry too; the tighter we get, the more elbowing goes on. Such a treasure of ideas - many thanks!

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #59

#25
The Emperors new cloths is a story of ancient origin, during a time we were wrestling with humanity in another epoch. In that epoch a question was asked. To what length will the mind go to satisfy the heart? The emperor was experiencing an existential crisis of wanting others to see his wisdom. He paid a ransom for something to prove this point only to find the wisdom was not in others but in himself. How are we the emperor today? What existential beliefs have we conjured that we compare ourselves to? What ransom have we paid at the alter of humanity to satisfy this belief? Answers here can only be sought by self.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #58

#57
And to think I saw the same child yesterday holding his new son; his second son...every turns over; it is right! :)

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

2 years ago #57

Dr. Ali, Love is a subject not meant for logical discussion. Harvey Llloyd's recap of the types of love not withstanding, it is a subject wrapped in mystery that is never the same for two different individuals. The story that is told is not the one we hear. The emotion we project is not the one felt. Our relationship can take the path of control, or protection or one that is simply steadfast. The lover chooses. And so it goes.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#56
Yes, indeed we are happy to welcome dear Joanne Gardocki back. I shared many comments with her on LI and she is a wealth of moving knowledge. Dear Lisa " your child-son expressed himself sharper than any of us. He said it truthfully and with such eloquence. Children can express complexity in sharper and simpler terms than us.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #55

#53
Such perfect lyrics - and so great to see you, Joanne Gardocki...it's been an age! 'The connecting attribute in everything you share is how applicable it is on so many levels.' How very true that is of our dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee. Like you say - he's a giver beyond all! Funny, your comment reminded me of when my child-son said to me' I love that chick so much I want to throw it against a wall' which alarmed me at first. He never did it! But, I checked, it's called 'cute aggression': https://www.gobroadreach.com/broadreach-blog-cute-aggression which is very much like the lyrics!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#53
I meant one thousand wows and not as the typo reads. Sorry for that dear Joanne.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#53
WOW!!! and one thousand woe for your beautiful and sound comment dear Joanne Gardocki. I am elevated by your comment, the examples you share and the song that is spot on. I read the lyrics of the song. These lyrics captured my attention: "If you cling too tightly You're gonna lose control" Wonderful and it it says a lot. The more control we apply, the less control we have on the outcome. I wish many managers would read this eloquent quote. I can easily expand your comment to a dedicated buzz. And I owe you to dedicate a buzz for you. Your comment sings and makes me dance to its music.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#50
Dear Lisa- with each comment you add you not only enrich the discussions, but also adds new dimensions to it. The herd behavior is beautifully reflected upon from two opposite ends. You tempt me to read more about herding. I shall be back- mostly with a buzz to reflect the richness of your comment.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #51

CONT: The problem of this mentality is obvious: complacency. That will lead to some catastrophe or other, I suspect? It would be great to hear from Chris \ud83d\udc1dR Guest!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #50

#49
WOW...fabulous video! You're right - it's the same reaction. So then this is a herd or pack mentality that is beneficial to all unlike mob-behavior that is not. Very nice! It made me look up this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwin-eternity/201306/human-herding-how-people-are-guppies The author speculates 'In human societies, herding often involves people using the actions of others as a guide to sensible behavior, instead of independently seeking out high-quality information about the likely outcomes of these actions.' Then a bit further: 'We’re used to thinking of social groups as fundamentally cooperative entities, but with some kinds of groups, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the best-known biological theory of herding, William Hamilton’s β€œselfish herd” idea [1], proposes that herds are the result of individuals trying to ensure that other members of their species, rather than themselves, will get eaten by predators.' Complex is right, dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#48
You r two comments are consistent dear Lisa Vanderburg earlier. Complex systems are fragile because if one prisoner falls most likely the others shall fall too. To get out of this fragility and emerge stronger they self-organize into a circle. This way they all become stronger and in a better place than they were before. I recall seeing a video and food was thrown to animals. I searched for it and found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JmeZXBaUFo Please watch and tell me if it is different from your prisoners story. It is a 2 minutes video

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #48

May I offer another thread to your delightful buzz here Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee? Fragility. As you said, 'Antifragility is getting stronger after a chaotic experience.' It may be just me (and not the WWW) but we do seem more frail; could knowing too much become a barrier in our relationships to one another? As Harvey Lloyd said earlier of Eve, we know that too much information can cause 'absorption-rate problems'. Or is it just what we do with an over poulated planet; we become'mean'? I saw a photo taken in a prison in Pakistan I think (sorry Pakistan, if I've got this wrong!). It showed one large room where there were so many inmates, they were forced to walk a tight circle to move at all, and to possibly avoid being crushed. Outside of the obvious awfulness, this 'herd mentality' usually arises in humans when they can see no other way. Both my paragraphs seem to contradict each other, but do the relate?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#46
`No question or any doubt that I agree with your comment Harvey Lloyd. By definition complex systems are not studies through measurement. If we try to measure we fool ourselves. Like trying to measure the length of the British cost- the measure shall change with the measuring tool. It is only by experimenting and learning that we may understand. It is the system behavior that we attempt to understand and not the behavior of its individual elements. Yes and you are spot on "But this is the rub. Do i toll the bell with condemnation of right and wrong or do it explore with others the fanning of the flames of divinity within each of us"? Exploration is the way.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #46

#27
It is β€œI” that shall toll the bell:). But this is the rub. Do i toll the bell with condemnation of right and wrong or do it explore with others the fanning of the flames of divinity within each of us? When we take on the concept that each of us, regardless of identity as seen or presented by others, has this spark then we do not need to measure but rather act within the paradigm. Many posts i see on social media confront issues from the perspective of right and wrong. This get measured in ROI terms. In business this a great simple way to look at things. But if this is the only way why does emotional intelligence seem to be a topic that is gaining traction? Emotional intelligence is merely a look at discovering the divinity within each human. A new twist on an idea that is as ancient as man itself. When we battle right and wrong we select sides position ourselves and then defend or attack. When we seek the spark we seek a win-win proposition. Who wants to live in a world where society has dictated that 50% of the population are losers and 50% are winners. This sounds like a recipe to be avoided.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #45

#43
#44 Agreed....very elegant comment Cyndi wilkins - great to see you, sweetheart!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#43
In pursuant to my previous buzz and my comments here I find your comment very elegant Cyndi wilkins. You nailed it by saying "The energy generated by such intense feelings provides us with the perfect opportunity to dig in and make some changes in our heavy emotional patterns". When we are in a high energetic state we are more ready for transforming/ rearranging into new persons. Lovely comment

Cyndi wilkins

Cyndi wilkins

2 years ago #43

Extreme love requires extreme emotional maturity...and there are very few souls in physicality capable of it...especially while we are young. We all experience the 'butterflies' when we feel that initial attraction to someone. But that too eventually fades as we progress through the various levels of a relationship. Some may last just a brief period of time and others may endure decades..but only if we are able to ride the wave of inevitable change. Those who find themselves 'stuck' in extremes are being signaled by the 'powers that be' to check in with their own thoughts and habits when it comes to conducting themselves in personal/intimate and even professional relationships. The energy generated by such intense feelings provides us with the perfect opportunity to dig in and make some changes in our heavy emotional patterns...(lighten our loads so to speak) in order to make room for a connection of a more emotionally mature depth. Trying to engage in such relationships before we are emotionally prepared is heartache in the making...Interesting buzz Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee...Certainly something for everyone to ponder before engaging in any relationship.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #42

#40
You've pegged me perfectly Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee - I live exactly as described in your comment - very astute, dear man!

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #41

#34
haha...yup Harvey, we both got stuck out of context - I came back to find a few I new ones to catch up on! (#36 )

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#28
Love is chaos when it becomes the only focus. This can be evident from the time we devote a beloved one almost leaving nothing else in the mind to think about. It leads to secluding self from the world. When become overwhelmed by it and we go into a tunnel with thick boundaries. When it leads to contraction and not expansion and curling up rather than extending the arms. In a way it is a high energy state ready for transformation of diving into chaos. I wonder if you dears Lisa Vanderburg would agree. The extreme for one person might not be the extreme for another depending on their capacity to see love as a way to expand and grow.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #39

#33
Yes! Where's Cyndi wilkins especially!?

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #38

#31
I know the confusion in such a narritive whereby behaviour or the dreaded condition we call Alzheimer's. The choice though, never changes. I can see the behavior and measure its impact on my life or i can see the life in another attempting to express their version of divinity. Neither choice is easy, but one does provide hope of understanding. More importantly it provides a path of sharing i can stand on. If i see only the behavior then i can not stand on the path with you.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #37

#30
While I await your comment to Ali#29 ...I'm not answering that yet; as for Eve: She yearned for something she didn't have and didn't know until that point she wanted it - to be closer (maybe equals) with God. That pesky serpent knew where her weakness was, so I'm not sure all men would agree that she was a pioneer! But it was gonna happen - one way or t'other! :)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#34
I was responding to the word extreme mentioned by CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit on my previous buzz. Now, that you offer an explanation of what extreme is "If we want to use the word then i would posit that extreme is when we lift our hearts away from the divinity within you concept and hold you up to something existential to find conformity" is commendable. I tried in the buzz to define extreme by the amount of love that is beyond our capacity to hold. The overflow could be our issue.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#31
" I was unloved}- this is a keen issue dear Lisa Vanderburg. How could a mother make her daughter feel unloved? There must be a strong reason and this could be the divinity spark?

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #34

#19
That word extreme again:). What does extreme mean if we lack something to compare. What if a bacteria went through all of population and reduced everyone's hearing by 50%, would screaming still be considered extreme? If we want to use the word then i would posit that extreme is when we lift our hearts away from the divinity within you concept and hold you up to something existential to find conformity. We are quick to use existential comparisons to hold others to conformity, but what do we do when others do it to us. If we merely take them off the Christmas card list then we are fairly mild. I will leave you with statement i read here on beBee. When i look at your behavior i see character problems, when i look at myself it is situational conditions that cause my behavior.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#30
If only women author bees would read your comment Harvey. I don't like to tag people; otherwise I would have tagged them all to read and comment on your comment.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Just a quick observation to compare beBee with LI. This buzz has just passed the 100 views versus more than 500 views on LI. The comments here almost 30 versus 7 on LI. Likes here 6 versus 10 on LI. I surely prefer the "learning-opportunity" the comments provide here. For the attention of Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee because he published recently a lovely buzz on this topic.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #31

#24
I too believe we have a spark of the divine; that's the only way to not hate. Very well said Harvey! I just came from Pascal Derrien buzz: https://www.bebee.com/producer/@pascal-derrien-leinster/inside-out which was a very beautiful and moving account of alzheimer's. I surmised that he had to have deep and personal knowledge of this to write so poignantly about it. But it also made me wonder if I could truly feel what he felt of his (Mother...I am guessing) because I was unloved? I can feel it deeply, his words, but I know this is the divinity-spark!

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #30

#19
Ive given Eve a lot of thought these days as it does represent the point of where self awareness began. Your statements are somewhat conclusionary within the thought of Eve being Compititive. Can we be competitive if we are not self aware. If I dont know i am naked can i know you are? So would think that something else is going on at the moments before the apple. The serpant is giving all the context here, not Eve. In the verses it says, and then Eve saw. I dont think we speak to the visual cortex here but rather Eve had a revelation. Personally i believe that Eve had a revelation not of competition but rather a concept of love and hope where she experienced the reflection of self awareness. Unfortunately the serpant was successful in hiding the aspects of nakedness we discuss here. Where as Adam was blinded to this. Which most men are even today. I see Eve as more a pioneer in todays terms, willing to adventure into new territory seeing the best of outcomes.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#25
Fantastic dialogue (not conversation( dear Lisa Vanderburg- I would love would respond first because he is credited with the naked idea in his comments. All I want to add for now Lisa is that it is again the story of Aladdin. Only one person sees the magician. How many people the "new magic clothes which can only be seen by wise people". How many people can see the new truth while viewing it from the lens of the past? How many scientists refuted new science findings because they kept their familiarity lens?

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #28

#20
#22 Couldn't agree more Debasish Majumder - as Ali said, you got me there! That's probably why I think love cannot be contained in any semblence os predictability - it's is chaos itself!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#24
I don't know to what degree is relevant, but you remind me of the core values of individuals as many people don't know theirs. The same be extended to divinity. As you mentioned Harvey Lloyd " i believe each person has a spark of divinity within them. I need to love that and speak to that". Is this easy to find and with the stress of time people are aware of their divinity as much as they are aware of their core values. Great idea, but who shall toll the bell?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#23
In my view there are two options my friend Debasish Majumder: Option 1- to keep close to the equilibrium center whenever possible and if you swing away from it then re-balance as soon as possible. option 2- you get pushed to the extreme and you started to live comfortably in the chaos. This is the The chaos Complex. Here, you have two sub-options- to get immersed in chaos or to self-rearrange. Without being self-driven to rearrange into a new structure and new state this is not possible. Look how birds when they fly arrange in V-formation without a leader and in this flying pattern they achieve the best. On the edge of chaos we need creative solutions.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #25

#18
Having read both your and Harvey's enriching previous comments, I'm reminded of Helen Keller's teacher Anne Sullivan, who taught her profoundly blind and deaf pupil sign language by touch association. This (I'm sure you know) was not at all easy! This 'love language' offered in #17 coupled with 'trajectories' in #18 - is it possible to truly understand each other's version or will we inevitably put our own interpretations into play. If I really knew what agape love was, for example, I'd be...er..dead? You're only naked if you know that; 'emperor's new clothes, the. ... It is the title of a fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen about an emperor who pays a lot of money for some new magic clothes which can only be seen by wise people. The clothes do not really exist, but the emperor does not admit he cannot see them, because he does not want to seem stupid.' google.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #24

Can we love the criminal and what does that mean. In the world of meterialism it is difficult to invoke the word love within this context. We can pity and hate the criminal that robs us of our materialism. But love is elusive, until, we go back to the ancient text and see nakedness for what it is. Someone who was found naked and responded in the best way they new how, criminality. In this i can have love for their sense of abandonment. This does not mean that punishment should not be levied. But does describe what punishment should look like in our attempt to assist the person to understand their nakedness. Or love. Truly Agape love. We should see behaviour as an outcome of nakedness and work from this perspective. Not because it will give us the right answer, rather the alternative is to provide enough fear that behaviour will change. We see in leadership at all stations never survives the fear doctrine. Do you believe that all of us have divinity within us? If so then we can express the following: 1. Its lost and cant be found within the individual 2. It has not been guided/explored 3. Others divinity has crushed theirs How do these questions change if we say no, that divinity does not exist in all? 1.How do we separate out those that dont 2. What do we do with them 3. Who will set these standards For my little small world of existance i believe each person has a spark of divinity within them. I need to love that and speak to that. The alternative is to gruesome to explore. Although history has explored this aspect of love with great many lives extinguished in the name of the same.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #23

#22
i wonder is it chiefly depending upon one to remain close to equilibrium! if we consider love is a reconcile state of two polarized identity, inevitable there will be a condition between two about who will eventually take the credit of its fruit. the contradiction between two will not tend to move towards an edge? if we consider love too a dynamic and its momentum surely lead it to the edge, paving for engendering chaos, how we can consciously avoid it? how an abstract element could be gauged? i am eager to know sir Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#20
This is a great comment dear Debasish Majumder wouldn't respond to it. My answer is balancing. If we go an extreme and far from equilibrium then we invite chaos. On this edge either we restructure or collapse.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#19
In anticipation of how Harvey Lloyd

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #20

love contain both aspect, sometimes it having the strength to manifest, and sometimes remain in hidden state! i wonder when it is in hidden form how will one gauge its intensity! expression of love translate in longing only to satiate an individual's desire, which inevitably having an inherent element to eclipse one with other's shadow and 'I' always plays the intriguing role in love, where possession become a tool to express its valor! on contrary, we cannot rule out that love too endow a sense of accountability and ensure a safe cloud which may only rain to expose proliferation with deeper entanglement! however, every body loves himself or herself most and in this case i wonder how extremes of love may impacted upon! what is its saturating point and how it may cause ruin for one too! may be chaos can be caused by narcissism paving one to go for astray. truly sir Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee your buzz itself having the inherent strength to form chaos by engendering numerous bifurcation! enjoyed immensely by following enriching comments! thank you very much for such wonderful buzz sir.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #19

#15
An excellent point Harvey, in the competitive underlying Gen 3 text; in that the sought to compete with God and found out the true meaning of the serpent's deception. In essence, Eve was competing with God - as was Adam, because he didn't intervene. Thus, their innocence lost, they were forever marred. Pretty much like us! You said 'Extreme would seem to measure certain acts against something.' Are we more extreme in time's of crisis...does this too run a 'corrugated' line as Ali suggest in his comment #11 ?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#17
You remind me of a point that I opted not to include in the buzz pertaining to the kind of love we talk about. We call all of them love, but is this true? Yes, we have different perspectives of love and what follows naturally shall take a different trajectory. The two sides you refer to are there and I expressed this in the bifurcation diagram of love. I stopped at the first bifurcation. I could have extended the diagram to include the bifurcation of love in terms of jealousy and loss of self-trust. Each bifurcation step leads to the next and even more bifurcated stage and hence the onset of chaos. So, again I am in agreement with you.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #17

#16
I would think that overprotective is also a discriptor of the material world. Maybe i am over or under interpreting the adjective. I would think that within a relationships such as marriage their is each owning eschew soul to some extent. So over protection would point towards jealousy or coveting. Each destructive to one side of the relationship. By Pandora’s box i really mean the existential responses that come from such a topic. The fundamental levels of the big five archetypes would dictate that at least five different perspectives would emerge. Add to each of these various narritives and we can have nuances that rival the number of stars. Eros, or sexual passion. The first kind of love was eros, named after the Greek god of fertility, and it represented the idea of sexual passion and desire. ... Philia, or deep friendship. ... Ludus, or playful love. ... Agape, or love for everyone. ... Pragma, or longstanding love. ... Philautia, or love of the self. Love truly is the level of trust of our shadow within another person, our nakedness shared.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#15
Thank you Harvey Lloyd for contributing a mind-enriching comment. Let me start first with your thought "this is Pandora’s box. Love is something that is difficult to explain...". The definition of Pandora's box in dictionary is "a process that once begun generates many complicated problems". I think this definition may be improved by replacing the word complicated with complexity. In the image of the journey of love after the first bifurcation to control and protection shall face further bifurcations till we have chaos at the end. One way to stay out of this potential chaos is behaving in accordance with your following line "Who would you like to be naked with? Who will handle your fears and anxieties with the care and compassion you would expect"? As long as we give to the naked the feelings of safety and wash away anxiety to the extent that the naked will not look for us as protector for the rest of his/her life this shall be great. What happens is when we become over-protective with all its consequences. Yes, I love the way you described love as long as we give it without owning the life of the "naked".

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

2 years ago #15

Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee this is Pandora’s box. Love is something that is difficult to explain as we all experience it differently. Also it is something that existentially we see others expression of love from our own narrative/perspective. I believe we have to go back in history to an ancient story to understand the conceptual meaning. In Genesis 3 we learn of Adam and Eve experiencing β€œnakedness” for the first time. They became self aware. Nakedness is a concept of not only physical but psychological significance. We will be sticking with the psycological aspects here. Who would you like to be naked with? Who will handle your fears and anxieties with the care and compassion you would expect? This is love. I enjoyed and researched CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit concept of β€œextreme love”. In examning this adjective β€œextreme” it appeared to imply competitive aspects of love. This seemed contradictory within the concept. But does seem to fit quite well once we move past the ancient story into the post modern world. Extreme would seem to measure certain acts against something. I would suggest that it measures against either relatvism or materialism or both. When we remove these two elements and see it from the ancient text concept there really is only a shared journey where trust in holding my shadow is the essence of love. Existentially the outside world experiences this love and cant explain it except through comparison.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#13
Agree 300%

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #13

#12
Exactly, but there comes a point where one must stop the blame-game and buckle down. The beginnings of maturity, which come later for those who have to repair their own lines. How do they do that? By realized they do not want to ham-strung by the past nor pass that onto their kids in the future.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#8
This is exactly the point my friend Lisa Vanderburg that I am trying to explain. If a mother over loves her kids they shall grow with weak personalities because they shall tend to rely on mothers' control and protection to pave their way in life. Again, you remind me of a student who spends almost all of his time studying and the mother encourages him to do so. What happens next. The student fails in life for he fails to meet its challenges. We need love to lead to brighter future and with excessive love this isn't possible.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#7
Passionately in love comes to my mind Pascal Derrien. I believe there exists a corrugated safety line and if we go beyond it things shall follow Murphy's Law.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #10

#7
Hence the 'smoldering' - a term used in passion and rage, no? I agree with you Pascal Derrien that love and passion are different, entertwined.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#5
Again, your comment speaks to my mind and heart dear Zacharias \ud83d\udc1d Voulgaris. You are very correct in every word you wrote in your comment. When we love what we do excessively we become so obsessed by it that we develop the tunneling effect. We become blind to what goes on around us. I know personally a research chemist who was so engaged in his research that he saw his son who was born Xmas day the next year Xmas day! Your comment is truly valuable.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #8

#6
haha...that's a challange - not commenting on it :) Much appreciated my friend! But we are, at least subliminally, aware that this line is there...it is built into us by our parents (hopefully) who teach us boundaries. And then, when we have kids; remember that feeling that you don't want them to grow up? We all know that they will fledge and leave, so instead we do what we can to instill basics like integrity, faith, compassion before they do. That said, bad or inadequate parenting can leave these children unable to see not just the line of extreme love, but the many other lines that were to guide them are broken, so their struggle will be carried on to the next generation IF they don't 'realize' that.

Pascal Derrien

Pascal Derrien

2 years ago #7

I think love and passion are two different things there is not a always the same destructive and exclusive obsessional path in love than you find or come across in passion, same type of sentiment or combustion it s like comparing a match and a bonfire :-)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#4
There are few comments that are so solid and moving that grab the heart fully. This comment of yours dear Lisa Vanderburg is truly one of the few. I love it as it speaks to my mind and heart. Yes, we live in the chaos of love and, paradoxically, we enjoy its chaos as we become familiar with it. It takes great wisdom to balance excessive love to stay "on the right side of the line". That is why your writing "treat id with respectful respect" resonates strongly with me. Love is dynamic to be living and it changes course. We have a capacity to fill our hearts with love. If we exceed the capacity love overflows and the trouble starts the. Your comment is so solid that commenting on it may not be a wise thing to do. It is a musical one.

Zacharias 🐝 Voulgaris

That was love-ly :-) Extreme/excessive love exists, but it seems to me that it's more of a symptom of our excess-oriented society. We don't want some to have just a good day, that's why we wish them a great day. We don't want to succeed in something, we opt to excel and be the best ever. If misfortune strikes us, it's the end of the world, or at least our drama makes it seem like it is. Could love stay unaffected by this polarized approach to life? Probably not, but then again, perhaps that's the only way for some people to understand the middle path, the serene love that is both anti-fragile and time-proof.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #4

You describe so beautifully this paradox that is 'extreme love' and the dangers inherent within dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! Not an explanation I could have graphed at all. Certainly for me (as you mentioned me), I could say I've escaped the destructive side of this 'antilove' by simply 'knowing' its power. But that wouldn't necessarily be true, because love must go on in a constant state of chaos; life and time = fluidity and atrophy. It's an ever-moving smorgasbord - if you go back to the start to fill your plate, you will eat of rotting food! There is a line certainly. It's easy to cross it for long enough to kill your love, especially if you're young...helps if you've been at it for years! But that line is not straight, it too is constantly shifting. Sometimes you don't know you've crossed it. But treating it with fearful respect by having accepted its reality, that's about the only way I know to stay on the right side most of the time. It is a terrible thing to take on responsability for your beloved; I will have to answer for what I do, so I remember that. Oh - fabulous dragons! I'm eager to hear your reply - I can only scrape at the surface of what's in your mind, so it's a good dig!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#2
Knowing you well dear Debasish Majumder I dare say there is no poem from you on this buzz. I appreciate your feedback and sharing of the buzz. But, as a person who enjoys reading poetry I dare say that you haven't been moved to the extent to write a poem. I was hoping you would. This is the paradox of expectation- we get the opposite of what we expected. Have a wonderful Sunday my friend.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #2

very thought provoking buzz sir Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! enjoyed read and shared. thank you for the buzz.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Lisa Vanderburg- you are mentioned in this buzz.

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