Where to Place a Tie Pin?

Where to Place a Tie Pin?

During my lectures lately at the “Leadership Forum” in Istanbul a fellow lecturer asked me to replace my tie pin by suggesting a different place. His suggestion aroused me to find an answer to the title of this buzz. Some questions seem simple; they aren’t.

It is amazing how findings in science extend to where we should place a tie pin. The suggestion of my fellow reminded me of a similar question- where to place the dash of an F letter. What is the best place for the dash and why? You can see the dash almost in the middle of the F letter as WinWord suggests.

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If we treat a tie pin as the dash in the tie, then is it best to place it in the middle? What science says?

In fact, the answer is simply no. We know from Fibonacci numbers and the resulting Golden ratio is that the most eye-appealing place should be in accordance with the Golden Ratio. It is best 0.38 and 0.62 (total of 1). The dash and tie pin accordingly should be placed at 0.38 or 0.62 from the top of the F letter and the tie pin.

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                                  The original F and the modified F with the dash moved closer to the top

Which of the two Fs appear more appearing to the eye? It was interesting to Google for the term where to place the tie pin. One reference I found reads “The rule is simple: It goes between the third and fourth buttons of your dress shirt". So, the advice is to place the pin almost 0.62 from the top of the tie. I am not in fashions, but if I were a pin tie with the word leadership imprinted on it because I am lecturing on leadership and I want the pin to be visible. When I attach the buttons of my jacket during my lecture and socializing I want the word leadership to be apparent. For practical reasons I prefer to place the tie pin at 0.38 from the top of the tie because it shall always be exposed to the eyes.

The 0.38 Ratio is applied in buildings to give them a better aesthetic view. You can see this One example is the image below.

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       Schematic Plant Diagrams, Human Body Diagram, Golden Angle Diagram, Fibonacci Spiral Diagram by Gillian Jose-Riz.

The interconnections between sciences is amazingly extensible to fashions and all facets of our lives.

Where do you place your tie pin?

Added after publishing:

Dear Debasish Majumder wrote a beautiful poem post to publishing this buzz. An image in the buzz attracted my attention. His use of the word dash prompted me to ask if we should be thinking 0.38% of the time of the past and the remaining).62% of the time of the future (or, vice versa). Between the two opposites where should we focus our attention? I reproduce the image with modification to illustrate my inquiry. Any thoughts on this idea?

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Comments
Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#59
Well, then let me see the outcome of the glow dear Debasish Majumder. Please remember that the glow receives its highest value when it happens in darkness. Brighten the lives of others my friend.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #53

#58
i cannot ignore that you play the pivotal role, triggering me to write poetry with immense potential of your own to ignite me! i glow out of your energy sir! i truly hats off to your sincere endeavor! you are truly great sir Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#57
This is the fallacy dear Debasish Majumder. We call them small, but forget that potential. For example, a match can burn a forest. When we consider small and trivial they are guided against our attention. Yes, as human balloons who are filled with air and make the loudest noises. Size isn't true measure of value. Is this your next poem? I shall not be surprised if it is.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #51

#54
small to our apparent eyes sir Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! when a balloon being inflated by air, it may seem that it is great. but, actually it is small in terms of the pressure being inserted upon it to accommodate the air, not considering the volume of air being inserted on it, which can be acquired more space than it is being forced to accommodate. i guess, who are we to assess what is small? do you think you are small in terms of the buzz you produced? it unleashed a lot of opinion to percolate, which alone work as a testimony how great you are sir!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#55
The math is very simple> if your husband was to wear a tie pin what would be the best place? I am saying it is o.38% from the neck and from the length of the tie. These golden ratio applies in many other fields in our lives such as veins in our body and the way they branch. I am calling here for the need to cater for small things that make a difference. By the way I am so happy to see you back commenting. You know how much I value your comments.

Lisa Vanderburg L

Lisa Vanderburg

2 years ago #49

...why do you always hit me with the numbers, Doctor dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee??? You KNOW I'm pants at them :) The final pic is ruined by the dot that follos....ain't that life, eh? But I love the idea of the 'dash' - must check out Debasish Majumder buzz too.....I'll be back! Sorry for the tardiness - pesky living needs doing :)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#53
Proma \ud83d\udc1d Nautiyal- thank you dear and for your appreciation of what I describe as "light buzz" By light I mean simple ideas to cope with the fact that people prefer light meals in hot summers. Yes, sometimes small differences make big impacts.

Proma 🐝 Nautiyal

Proma 🐝 Nautiyal

2 years ago #47

This had never crossed my mind, earlier. It's truly amazing how the Fibonacci numbers and the position of the tie pin tie together. I am sure now I will be scanning everything around me to find this theory delivered in reality in our daily lives. Thank you for the buzz, Sir. (The tagging feature isn't working, so I couldn't tag you. Hope you find this comment.)

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #46

#18
Great insight Jerry Fletcher! yes, topography is a factor of immense value. we, precisely living in the climate can realize effectively how tie as well tie pin is sheer tormenting to us, precisely in hot summer.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #45

i am just afraid of tie, as i consider it is a tool of my superior to catch me out of tie and force me to toe to their design as i dare to vie Louise Smith! thank you for sharing such lovely insight.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #44

#44
yes, in the passage of time we observe the only constant is change Cyndi wilkins! whether tie or preening ourselves with other form of style, we just crave to make a hype! what a grand metamorphosis we adhere with just to make loud our cry! i am amused whether our inherent desire guided by any ruse!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#48
I am the one who is thankful to you dear Debasish Majumder for you ignited the thought in my mind. Thank you again.

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #42

sometimes tie pin is studded with precious jewels to make it more gorgeous and attractive. your addition made the buzz equally more attractive sirAli \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee and surely will beckon more comments to follow. enjoyed as well honored for mentioning my poem. thank you very much for your enriching continuous support sir.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Now expanded with an idea that dear Debasish Majumder inspired me with.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Debasish Majumder- I edited the buzz to include an idea that you inspired me with. Thank you

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#44
It is amazing in what directions comments may lead us Cyndi wilkins. The tie tucked under the vest must have been chosen for a reason. It is surprising how small things draw our attentions sometimes. Very interesting comment my friend

Cyndi wilkins

Cyndi wilkins

2 years ago #38

This is an interesting subject to me Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee because of a photograph I have of my Great Great Grandfather...In it he is wearing a suit jacket, vest and a tie...the underlying vest being typical of formal dress in his day...being that of the mid 1800's... The tie however, does not hang straight down the front of him...It instead is tucked neatly under the vest and over his right shoulder...does anyone know of this being 'the fashion' for wearing a tie in those days?? I had never seen it before.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#37
And what did you find? Long time ago an Arab poet said" when peoples' turned double-faced I was rewarded for a smile with a deceptive smile".

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#36
Louise Smith

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#34
I don't disagree CityVP \ud83d\udc1d Manjit. I wouldn't have written the buzz if I wasn't criticized for misplacing the tie clip. What prompted me to write the buzz is it is summertime and I wanted to write a "light" buzz. I shared it on the Fashion Hive because I believe it belongs there. The larger issue is what comes first- fashion and beauty or practicality. What makes a lady walk with a high-heeled shoes and feeling terrible uncomfortable? It is following the fashion trend. The pain the lady gets from not conforming is higher for her than walking uncomfortably. If we fill the shoes with finely broken glass the pain shall multiply considerably and she might think differently. Our values are distorted sometimes.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#33
Reading your comment reminds me of same experience I had myself dear Edward Lewellen. I consulted for a firm that was almost sinking because they were noncompetitive. The firm offered their major product at a m=higher price than competitors. I reviewed their process and found a way to reduce the cost of the energy-consuming step by 50%. This helped the firm offer their product at lower cost. The firm survived and became profitable. The management sent me a thanking letter with a dismal fee. I returned the money refusing the insult. The management asked me to meet with them. They said "you worked for us for few days". We paid you what you are entitled to". I said, but just of the years I invested in my life to be able to solve your problem". Yes, people have distorted ways of evaluating services. I am not surprised to read your saddening comment.

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

2 years ago #33

#31
Please tell us more !

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

2 years ago #32

#8
There's a lot of Psychology research into reciprocal & gender based smiling ! I did my own experiments to see if the claims were true ........

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

2 years ago #31

#7
Interesting extrapolation Edward Lewellen. And so true. To succeed it's best for a person to know & adhere to the social norms within the group they are working with (whether they agree with the Norms or not) It's best to "pin in" What about the placement of a Cravat Pin ? Isn't it different to a tie pin O Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee ? There was a craze for young male professionals to wear crazy cartoon character socks with their expensive suits One I knew deliberately wore a mismatched pair every day !

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

2 years ago #30

#1
LOL LOL LOL

CityVP Manjit

CityVP Manjit

2 years ago #29

Personally I think we are pushing the envelope on the Golden Ratio when it comes to associating it with a tie clip. The tie clip is not looking for optimal sunshine, it is looking for a place where it keeps the shirt and tie together so that the tie does not lollop and flail all over the place. There is a whole heap of manliness when it comes to accessorizing and ultimately the "James Bond" look is not something we will all achieve. As much as I would love to be an elite of the elites, my fashion sense like so many other comments here just do not cut into the status of fashion worthiness. That worthiness is centered on a golden ratio but a prescription that is very tribal at its roots even if it ends up being very sophisticated and equally very expensive to maintain. There is a certain mythological component to aligning the Fibonacci number with a prescription for beauty and Kieth Devlin in particular has cited this mythological component. At the same time it is mythology rather than The Golden Ratio which is pivotal to society, society thrives on a cultural link to myth making. In the case of the tie pin comparison, we then consequently surrender good science to create yet another mythic comparison, and that is the how of how religious thoughts come into being. We can prove the Golden Ratio in nature because we can see the mathematics related to what a plant finds physically optimal. Our human optimal is mythological and beauty is literally in the eye of the beholder. Plants are bodies that have been constructed upside down, with their genitals always facing the wind and their head always buried in the ground - the design of the human mind is very different - and the history of human irrationality in comparison needs no added explanation. Our emotions are what drives our myth making and pattern seeking tendencies. Humanity is not reducible to a phi number.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#31
Great explanations dear Edward Lewellen. I think you need to publicize more your knowledge of how to treat OCD and PTSD. If you can cure them in hours, and I know well that you make no false claims, may be you need to highlight more on your knowledge and expertise on this important issue.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

I found another discussion that mentions your buzz again with great emphasis on the value of your buzz Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee. "We need our lives to keep flowing so that we don’t feel the passage of time as we are completely immersed in the river of life. The broken pieces of our experiences, hearts and memories shall not stop the river from flowing. The words of Javier beBee, Co-founder & CEO • beBee, http://bit.ly/2yBQYmr, http://bit.ly/2xu7jty, in his elite buzz “How to Achieve the "Flow State", http://bit.ly/2hYl1xF, are captivating. Javier wrote “The state of flow, or being in the zone, is a state of peak performance”. I feel the truthfulness of these words" Link: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/4363818/4363818-6109678161631465475

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee- there is a great discussion on one of your buzzes on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/groups/4972340/4972340-6323300242305490946

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#15
Curiosity of what to be continued killed the cat!

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#26
For the sake of expanding on this important by Louise Smith I provide this info. "Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) are anxiety disorders that commonly co-occur in people with a history of trauma. Research shows that the likelihood of a person diagnosed with PTSD developing OCD within a year is about 30 percent". https://www.verywellmind.com/trauma-ptsd-and-ocd-2797516

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

2 years ago #23

#9
Leads to Anxiety> OCD > Depression > PTSD

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#24
I am deeply grateful to you Bill Stankiewicz, \ud83d\udc1d Brand Ambassador. Thank you

Bill Stankiewicz, 🐝 Brand Ambassador

Great buzz 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#22
What a great and relevant quote Franci\ud83d\udc1dEugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador. I dedicate my pin to you

Franci 🐝Eugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador

Tie pin haiku- dedicated to Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee tie pins so stylish donned by the finest of gents defines a leader

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#20
We have our own styles Jerry Fletcher. For people like me who lack the innate skills of design such rules are very helpful.

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

2 years ago #17

#19
Dr. Ali, Thank you for the reference. I reviewed it. I must tell you that having been trained in design and involved with designers for over 50 years, that the golden mean is something they heard about in school but have probably never used as a design formula. Most "feel" their way to a better design. I have never allowed design to get in the way of being able to put the words that convince or persuade on the page.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#18
Thank you Jerry Fletcher for commenting and enriching the discussions with a new dimension. I don't claim, and have read hugey on this topic. One reference is: How to Use the Golden Ratio to Create Gorgeous Graphic Designs https://www.companyfolders.com/blog/golden-ratio-design-examples Trees and branches follow same rule. Our arteries are fractal because they obey the same rule. Even the predictions of the prices of the price movement in stock markets follow the principles of the golden ratio. The dentist use Fibonacci scissors, which have the o.38:0.62 ratio. I truly appreciate your comment and the historical background that is informative.

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

2 years ago #15

Dr. Ali, I know I have some tie pins somewhere but since I haven't worn a tie since 1990 they are a little hard to find. Typography is one area where great design endures through the ages. Do the ratios you claim to be perfection appear in designs like Palatino (a classic serif face) or Helvetica (the san-serif progenitor)? Were they even considered? Probably not. Palatino was designed by a master of calligraphy and based on classic fonts that date back to ancient Rome. Helvetica which is commonly used in logotypes was developed in the 50s by Swiss/German typographers. The crossbars of the lower case f and t appear (on casually viewing) to be at the O32 level however the reason I believe is for alignment with the x height which is used as a standard in almost all typographic design.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#16
`I am only follower of nature and its beauty. SO beautiful are dimensions that follow the law pf the Golden Ratio. Why then we gave this ratio its name of gold? Thank you John Rylance

John Rylance

John Rylance

2 years ago #13

Should you wear a tie pin with a waistcoat/cardigan?  Sartorially no, free choice yes if you want. Much depends as to whether you are a leader or a follower of fashion.

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

2 years ago #12

Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee You did it again! The title - I couldn't go past it to be continued .......

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#13
I appreciate your comment Pascal Derrien. I reported the case which spurred the idea of the buzz. I could have exchanged the tie with other items and still the same logic will hold. @Edward Lewellen gave few examples of which is his comment

Pascal Derrien

Pascal Derrien

2 years ago #10

I avoid ties as much as I can :-) Don't really like the idea of having my neck strapped to a piece of soft fabric :-) let alone a tie pin which really sounds like voodooing to me :-)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#11
Great and now I visualize you writing a buzz on this topic dear @Edward Lewellen. I know you and I am sure an idea is fermenting in your mind. I am not asking for confirmation because I believe this is the case.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#9
Great thoughts here dear Edward Lewellen. You remind me of the dots making a wave on a pendulum, which I reported in one of my previous buzzes. If you would view the following video as of minute , you may replace the dots (balls) with neurons. When the neurons synchronize their movement they produce a beautiful wave. Now, displacing one ball (neuron) or should it not follow. w the simple rules of movement a distorted wave shall result. Again, this shows how one small neuron in a network may disrupt the harmony of our lives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c5GX87zQTY This is my initial thought. Does it make sense to you?

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#7
Very good observation dear friend Edward Lewellen. Many small things ending up having a great impact. The butterfly effect of smiling and how to show a golden ratio proportion in our smiles might be impacting. I shall search for this possibility. I must say that when I noticed your comment I expected to read a comment relating the golden ratio to the nervous system and neuroscience. You surprised me joyfully.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Thank you dear Debasish Majumder for commenting and sharing the buzz. You are observant because I deliberately chose a photo with the dimension 0.38 from the bottom and not the top. In case of tie pins I prefer placing them 0.38 of the length from the top for the reasons I mentioned in the buzz. Now, comes the challenge. Can you write a poem on this? Are you up to the challenge?

Debasish Majumder

Debasish Majumder

2 years ago #5

amazing buzz sir Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! in case of leadership, i find the bottom is most appealing, in connection with the photo you shared too at the bottom, that is the base of the structure. however, great buzz! enjoyed read and shared. thank you for the buzz sir.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#3
إYou know dear Randall Burns your comments ignites my mind to a topic that never crossed my mind, and in fact if anybody else. It is the application of the Golden Ratio in the kitchen. That shall be interesting to find out. I visualize you wearing w tie pin and you look great

Randall Burns

Randall Burns

2 years ago #3

Yes I do and I thank you for the insights Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee (Hmmm, I'm actually looking forward to wearing a tie now to experiment and see...)

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#1
Believe me Randall Burns that the question of where to place a pin tie never crossed my mind till I wished to challenge the suggestion of my fellow lecturerenbecause I welcomed the challenge. At least you know now where to place a pin tie should you wish to. The forum organizer distributed the tie pins and wearing them showed appreciation for their generosity.

Randall Burns

Randall Burns

2 years ago #1

Interesting post Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee and to be honest I really can't remember the last time I wore a tie, (For upscale functions I'll don a neck-kerchief matching my Chef's whites). On those rare occasions when I do, (and I actually have some nice ties), someone else usually put's the pin "where it looks good", because they have no faith in my style judgement and I don't really look at it anyway.

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